The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Have never been too interested in carbines. Own a few carbines, but none chambered for the 7.62x39mm round which SKS and most AK-47 are setup for.

Evidently, a lot of guys are really sold on the AK and its cartridge. Cheap ammunition and a reputation for durability and dependable function seems to be the main attraction. As a survival tool though, any person living in the United States, Europe, South America, Africa or almost anywhere that other cartridges are readily available is selling themselves short by selecting a rifle of any sort chambered for the 7.62x39mm. They are especially selling themselves short by choosing a semi-auto AK or SKS.

Why? Am I a rabid gun-hater when I advise against the AK variants? Hardly

My gripes about the 7.62x39mm are centered primarily upon the limitations of the round ballistics and its minimal adaptability for accurate ammunition and handloading. A 124 gr fmj bullet in military full power loading which only generates 2300fps is a close-range tool at best, and powered at maximum for taking human life or small deer.

A survivalist is not a soldier, although soldiers are concerned with their survival on a constant basis. Unlike soldiers, whose mission is destruction/mayhem and defense/offense against opponents; the survivalist needs do not involve patrolling or search & destroy.

The survivalist needs a more versatile firearm with superior ballistic performance than the 7.62x39mm can hope to offer. Why? Flexibility. The .308 Winchester or 7.62x51NATO offers more on all fronts. Almost double the powder capacity at only 1/3 extra length. Greater choice of bullet weights from a 100gr varmint bullet up to the 250gr Barnes solid. The greatest variety of match bullets for extreme accuracy at longrange of any caliber, many different match loadings from Federal, Hornady, Black Hills, Lake City...

Speer's manual shows a 110gr spitzer at 3200fps, 150gr at 2900fps, even a 200gr at 2400fps. Compared to a 123gr bullet at 2400fps in the 7.62x39 the disparity is obvious. The disparity means you are settling for lightweight bullets at minimal velocity. Ballistic coefficients all under .3 when compared to BC over .5 for the .308 bullets mean rainbow arc trajectory as opposed to flat-shooting performance.

Gonna really shoot an elk or mule deer with a 7.62x39? A wild boar? A black bear? Any other animal at anything other than very close range? Not likely unless it is all you have.

Yet for dispatching human life, especially those unarmed, the 7.62x39 has few peers. The Khmer Rouge employed it with great result. Of course the .22lr at the base of the cranium also is effective. Humans aren't particularly hard to kill when they have no means of resistance.

If I were concerned about repelling offensive forces who meant my family harm, I would select a much more powerful and therefore capable weapon. I want that guy with the poodle-shooter out there at 300-400yds beyond his effective range. With a .308, .30-06, even a .243Win I can deliver a reason to give pause. The same rifle will also take any game animal more effectively, and have greater variety of ammunition readily available. For the real gun enthusiast, the joys of handloading open the versaitility in great fashion.

The .308win is chambered in more bolt action sporting rifles than any other cartridge. As a NATO standard round, it is commonly available nearly worldwide. In the USA there are many battlerifles available to civilians. Having a working gun bolt rifle, pump, or semi-auto and a defensive rifle is a great combination to serve almost any game gathering or defensive situation that could confront you. With handloading gear & supplies, these weapons are capable of almost any task.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Good post.
For a second, I thought you were going to sing the praises of .223.

Personally, I am well stocked with 7.63x39 and .308.
(Also .22, 9mm, .40, .45, .45lc, .454)

I have no AR or any platform to shoot .223.
For the trillions of dollars we spend in foreign wars, you'd think we'd arm our boys with .308 only. I think the weight trade-off is worth it.

Of course .308 is superior.
In both performance and $$$price.....:confused_ma:


This kind of thinking is going to get a lot of people killed.
You think that when collapse happens, you're going to be "living off the land"
you are sorely mistaken.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Ooh! I want to play too!

I wish all my enemies were bound in chains in a secure facility in Antarctica. I also wish I had x-ray vision and the power teleport myself or other things at whim.

The world ends in four seconds! If you don't already have food in your mouth that you are chewing you have failed!

:confused_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Money matters rehashing verbatim another thread. 0 dollars

Rev's response PRICELESS


NOOB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I can not shoot reliably anything at 300 yards.
I can not think of any place around me that would require me to try to engage anyone at 300 yards.
I will rather seek cover and ambush those that I need to engage at a closer range.

http://kalashnikov.guns.ru/wwwboard/...ages/4048.html
> For those of you who are trying to compare a 7.62x39 to
> other calibers such as 308 (7.62x51) 6.5x55 Swedish, 8mm
> and others are comparing oranges to apples. There are no
> comparisons. 7.62x39 was not developed to shoot along side
> those and compete meter for meter or yard for yard.
>
> Military history showed during WW II and after that most
> shooting combat was averaging 100 meters or less and the
> M14's and other shooting 308's were too much power and
> weight for field combat. Hence came the M16 (223) for US
> forces, etc. The Soviets and others chose the 7.62x39.
> Smaller rounds for lighter firearms which meant the trooops
> could carry as much or more rounds onto the battlefield.
>
> If you compare the 7.62x39 to the 5.56, AFTER, 90 meters,
> you will find the 7.62x39 is a better round. After 150
> meters you can kiss even that one goodbye for knockdown
> power. If you want more power than that go to 308 or
> 7.62x54 or 30.06.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Why not own one bolt action in .308 or .30-06, and an AK or SKS in 7.62? :wink: They obviously each have their specialties and limitations.

Perhaps pick up a 12 gauge and a decent pistol, to boot!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

How about Kalashnikov reliability in an effective 600 yard cartridge?

...something like this...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

:shocked_ma: :shocked_ma: Krugerrand have you been snooping in my closet? :shocked_ma::shocked_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I've always advocated selecting a rifle chambered in a cartridge appropriate to your environment and requirements. If anyone would like to discuss the performance of a 7.62x39 AK at long range here is something interesting to think about...

An average AK in that caliber wielded by an average marksman firing average ammo can hold about 4moa. That is about 4 inches at 100 yards. A high quality rifle based on the AK action like a Vepr, a milled Arsenal or a Valmet/Sako can do half that. At any rate this works out to 20 inches at 500 yards. We'll assume there is some wind, that shooter has his POSP mounted for target aquisition, etc. Let's err on the side of caution and say the practical group is going to be 36 inches. Draw a circle 36 inches in diameter on the wall, center it on your center of mass. Stand in front of it. How much of that circle is covered by your body? How long would you like to stand in that circle with rounds coming in at random? A 36 inch group at 500 yards does not mean the rounds will impact on the edge of that circle, it means they will all fall somewhere inside that circle.

Not a long range precision platform by any means, also not something you want to be taking incoming fire from even at long range. Due to bullet design common 7.62x39 fmj does not perform in the manner some people assume. It is weight biased toward the rear of the bullet and tumbles readily in flesh. In fact 122gr fmj as well as m67, 8m1 or 8m2 all produce a greater wounding effect at 400 yards than .308 fmj will.

Unfortunately all these Zumbo-esque posts(and now thread) are riddled with factual errors and utterly void of any tactical or strategic thought.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Nope.... mine! :bear_w00t:

Well... aside from the bolt action. Still lacking in that department. I like the Steyr Scout but it's so pricey.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

so whats the biggest clip for a 308?
6?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

What are you trying to imply? I've read enough MoneyMatters survival posts to know that a five round fixed box magazine is morally superior to any high capacity detachable mag. :tongue_ma:

There are 30rd mags for the FAL and there is a 100rd Beta C mag for the M1A if you've got a few hundred burning a hole in your pocket.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

does it go bang?
does it go bang a lot?
does it make a big bang?
when it goes bang can i hit something with it at 100 to 200 yards?
can i afford to make it go bang to train with it?
can i get parts and ammo for it to keep it going bang?

sorry i know almost nothing about guns just feeling a little left out:confused_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

In the Great Depression the population of America was about 123 million people. They ate nearly all the game animals that were available, completely wiping them out in many areas. Nowadays the population is over 300 million, almost three times as many hungry mouths to feed and the population is growing by a little more than 1% per year. Three million more, every year. There were a whole lot more families who ran small farms in the 30's than there are today.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Maybe we'll be eatin' more of that long pork...:smokin:

stockpile plenty of BBQ sauce...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Good one. Too many "survivalists" plan to live off the land in competition with many others.I do have hunting rifles but have concentrated on defensive & offensive gear.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Best posts for awhile in my mind and my thought process
are this one and MtMn's.
And there was another I liked by Simpleton on another thread.
" Living off the land" is something that we should all think about with the reality of today's population and geographical dispersement.
Many think they are in that "perfect" place.
It will just take a little longer for the multitudes to get some of the places
many have gone to " get away" from it all.
" Hunted out" will take on a new meaning with todays population will it not ??
Lots to think about.
Regards,
Haystackneedle

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I have news for you...
If you live in a town big enough to have a loop freeway system, that loop is going to be locked down within one hour of a martial law declaration.

Planning on "bugging out"?
Good luck.
Pretty doubtful you will ever make it out of town.

I picked up the 7.62x39 vibe on this website.
Rev mentioning his 40lb load of AK, ammo & vest on that backpacking thread.
Yow!!!

Funny to get his thoughts on "cotton". Lots easier to store a few bolts of muslin, broadcloth, flannel and sewing gear than plant cotton, gin it, make thread and weave cloth; but guns must come first on his list. I dunno about you guys, but we even have 3 bolts of cheesecloth.

Guns are not the primary focus for self-sufficiency.

A .223 bolt action and AR-15 would be especially useful, as would be a .308 bolt gun and AR-10 or M1a. A Garand and a .30-06 bolt gun offers lots of opportunities. You can hunt with any of them, and have that superb extra performance and flexibility.

Nobody with any brains is planning on living off the land. Not unless you own a couple thousand acres of game-fenced property. Maybe you do? Would be a good idea to keep an eye on your place, fences and such if that's the case.

If game does become scarce, all the more reason to own rifles that can harvest it at longrange with reliability and accuracy. That excuses the 7.62x39 from the list. There are guys who actually do hunt and take game at over 500-1000yds. Big heavy rifles with 40x scopes and large magnum cartridges are what are most capable in that game. Although the .300Win Mag still is the main ctg for 1000yd benchrest shooting.

.30-06 and .308 are almost in that league. More like 800yd ctgs when handloaded correctly with proper twist barrels and good scopes.

Maybe the 7.62x39 is for men who never did anything but plink with .22s automatics as kids? The spray & pray crowd loves the firepower, but never could see hassling with trigger control and sight alignment. Cheap ammo and a gun you don't have to clean or inspect; what a delight!

It is a relief to know so many believe they are well served with these "tools".

Sad to think that so many really see their fellow citizens as potential Night of the Dead zombies.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I live in my "bug out" area and do not plan to run anywhere. At present our county has more deer than it has people,that will change when food supplies stop coming in....An influx of "flatlanders" from outside areas take care of that.What then?

Because of terrain,there will be few opportunities for 800-1,000 yard shots at anything,100-300 will be more like it.I have picked what I think is best for my situation.

I will be doing very little hunting but will probably do a lot of defending.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

The circus continues

Yup, that's how much a loadout weighs. Which is why I said it is impractical to carry everything you need on your back. Further it is undesirable to do so. That's what pack animals, a travois, a sled or cart or bike or just about any other conveyance is for. Backpacks are for fun or a last resort.

Err... huh? How did you get from that to this?

Oh wait, it's the Money Matters school of survival philosophy.

If you do any farming or gardening you have already failed. BEING ABLE TO GROW THINGS WILL GET YOU KILLED!

You'd have to be a real dope to have your hands on an inexhaustible supply of a useful commodity that can produce more from a bucket and some dirt in five months than you could store if you packed your whole house solid. Real survivalists only stock things away, they never have a way to replenish their supplies or increase their wealth. :sarc:

Sure seems you do a lot of bechrest shooting. Where exactly are you going to be able to get LOS on a game animal 500 or 1000 yards away again? That mountain goat on the next peak? Sure, it's valid if you're actually in that scenario, it just doesn't apply to most people due to intervening terrain.

What are you in it for? Purely trolling? Just personal pride? Or do you really believe the stuff you type?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

If I was after superior ballistics without going to a magnum caliber, its pretty hard to beat a .270 loaded with 130 grain bullets. Shoots as flat as a .300 wm but without the built in flinch.

Great moose/deer/black bear cartridge. I know from experience. In my neck of the woods a bolt action .270 would definitely be a viable combat weapon. The operative term being "woods". Other pertinent words would be swamps, bugs, and incredibly thick bush that continues on for many hundreds of miles.

I wouldn't pick this setup though for areas most GIMers live. It just happens to do well in mine.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Would really really like one of the original Simonoffs[SKS's]from WWII which was a 3 shot semi-auto shoulder or tripod fired anti-tank weapon that fired a round that was about 40% more powerfull than a US .50 cal, but I guess I will have to work with my post war models scaled down for the 7.62x39. Where I live in the very heavily wooded upper mid-west the average deer kill is at under 60 yards. I expect that the average survivalist "usage" of firearms will be at a simular distance in this local. I expect also that a modern equivalent to the old 30-30 round will do just fine around here, except for when those tank-like critters appear.

Did you ever stop to calculate the total foot-pounds of energy that a AK/SKS/whatever armed individual could put down range with 7.62x39 as compared to a M1/M14/FAL/etc.etc. armed individual with 308/30-06/etc. ammo, given the same weapon+ammo weight load? Or, the number of rounds?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I was gonna post something intelligent but then decided why bother.:sarc:

HUB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

does 90lx stand for a mustang?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I live in a tough town should things come to survivalism. theres about 12,000 people here, isolated on an island, and pretty much all the men are excellent shots and superb hunters. theres plenty of game here, but to get it you would have to travel far away from town, and its rough country. mountains and rainforest type terrain.

I see myself surviving off my stores for 3 or 4 months provided my place doesnt burn down, and then trying to go get some deer and getting sniped by a marksman from 1000 yards away. I got a little pistol AK for up close. nothing like 7.62 point blank and who can argue with a 100 rd drum?

at least during the summer there are more fish than a man can possibly imagine... I ought to learn how to salt fish meat.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...7/PDRM0029.JPG


It sure does!:applause_


HUB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

oh, nice one!

I had a 92 lx vert... orange crush edition. loved it

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p...c/mustang1.jpg

subframes, 331ci, gt40p heads held it back. e303 cam, mac midlength headers, t3550, 3.73s edelbrock upper and lower.

fun little street car. I love 5.0s

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Oh yeah!,
Fun cars. I took it to the track last weekend couldn't hook up. Terrible 60fts. My slicks are too old and don't bite like they should. I need to replace them every year but my focus is on what's going on with the economy. I been putting all my efforts in to Gold, Guns, Ammo and Food, so the toy has to wait. It sure is a blast though! If you have a May 2004 Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords Magazine around my car is featured on page 77.


HUBhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/504217/ffw25.jpg

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I love your signature quote. it describes me pretty good.

how the F do you prepare a rat for consumption?

you know what I think I could catch a lot of and consume here on the island... beavers.

can you eat those bastards?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

in all seriousness, how does one prepare in the guns and ammo dept in Cali? I thought that was no gunmans land

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

This site will teach you to prepare cat another post SHTF delicacy. All mammals are about the same, ya can eat them all, some are better than others.

http://www.ooze.com/ooze13/cats.html

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I'll admit it is difficult. For starters I have not been able to find .308 ammo in bulk for six months. 7.62X39 is available but I've been getting it cheaper online as well .308. No big hassles but you aren't goin to the Gun shop and picking up any cheap ammo. I have an M1A, Russian SKS, Springfield 1911, A Coach 12 Gauge shot gun and a S&W .44 Magnum all Kalifornia compliant. I'm good in the Guns department. Ammo I'm loading up on as well as seeds, tools, Water purification and food stuffs. Golds fits in there too as I can afford it.

HUB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

That's why I recommend the Saiga in 308...it will reliably feed the cheaper Wolf and Silver Bear steel-cased ammo...until the cows come home. :wink:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

anyone car to dis the mini30?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yup. I eat beaver on a regular basis.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Pure JUNK. After the first few shots the acuraccy goes to hell. WAY too many parts in the reciever. And expensive. The only firearms Ruger makes that are worth a shit are the 10/22 and Mark series .22 pistols, IMHO.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

What's wrong with the m-77 and the revolvers. I like Rugers though I do agree on the mini carbine series being junk.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I'm not a Bolt Gun type, I like my Semi-autos so I can't really critique the M77. About the revolvers, they're just big and clunky. Not slim and trim like the old S&W.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I can tell you why I prefer a 7.62x39 over a .308

go to www.gunbroker.com and type in FAL into the search and then type in AK or SKS and see what the big difference is.

Myself, I cannot afford to spend 1000.00+ on a rifle, So my $200.00 SKS suits my needs just fine.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

What about the Super Black Hawk or the Vaquero?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Saiga 308 ~ $350-400...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I was thinking about that rifle, and how I can convince my wife why we need one :D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Big and clunky compared to the Colt SAA or 1917 S&W, Chevy's(Ruger) to Vette's (Colt)

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Don't tell her. Just buy it and slip it in the house. When she see's it just swear that you've had it forever! Lot's of Luck!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

.308 is a good round but if cost is a consideration you should think about the 7.62x54r. It's a more powerful, available in a variety of grain weights and bullet types including steel core when you can find it. .308 is classified as a pistol round(I know, that's stupid) by the Bastards Against Terrific Firearms so steel core is a no-no. Cheap .308 costs fifty cents or more per round. 7.62x54r can be had for thirty cents a round or so and that's SP not FMJ. Ammo always ends up costing much more than the gun but if you're willing to settle for a bolt action you can get a Mosin for around $100 that is a 400-500 yard rifle with some real stomping power. Otherwise you could get a PSL but there again you're nearing $800 rifle. It does does come with a hard case and a scope and thats worth something over $175.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I agree with Mountain Man!

Don't want to cause you any marital discord, but the idea might work...

I took my wife out to shoot...let her try my Saiga .308 with 21 inch barrel and 3-9 scope...

She liked it and told me afterward, "...don't sell that one." :D

They are accurate, and softer recoiling than most 308 rifles.

Here is a target...Australian surplus @ 100 yards...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I live in Los Angeles. Hunting? Game? Whats that?
Survivalist cartridge?
To each their own... I don't think I would ever have to shoot past 100 yards here. Pump action, sub compact pistol, and a saiga will do.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Heh, she would use it on me if I did that. :D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM gets all 'REVVED UP' (get it? winky, winky) over on a couple of other 'sniper sites' and then likes to come over here and dis the 7.62x39 cartridge. It makes him feel superior to all us 'lesser' folk

HE thinks it's worthless. But we all know what OPINIONS are like, right?

MM, go back on over to where you can drool and spread your drivel and all your 'sniper buddies' will pat you on the back for PROPERLY REGURGITATING the stats of the 7.62x51.

You folks notice that he has sworn off dissing the AK as a family. That's because he has FINALLY LEARNED that the AK as a family of firearms is a much better platform than any other weapon out there.

And as I've told him SO MANY TIMES I TIRE OF TELLING HIM, the AK family is made in almost ANY modern caliber your heart desires.

SO MM, go back over to your sniper forums. You coming on here spouting incorrect and worthless knowledge falls on deaf ears.

BUT YOU KNEW THAT ALREADY BEFORE YOU POSTED THIS TOPIC, DIDN'T YOU?

:tongue_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Ah, thanks Wallew. This suddenly makes things much clearer. Sniper enthusiasm would explain why groups on paper at long range are so important to him while other practical considerations of hunting and defense don't register.

There's some good news for both 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 shooters. Or potentially good anyway. I recently caught wind of nearly half a million pounds of Yugo M67 x39 and Portugese x51 owned by a large importer that is currently being held overseas but is bought and paid for. Word is it is going to sit where it is till next Spring at least and be brought in over time. Hopefully it will help to bring down ammo prices. You know what they say about counting your chickens, though.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I think we need to define the "job" we're trying to accomplish here.

As many have said, in most survival locations, city and country, the sight distance is well under 100m. What did FerFal say about having his FAL with him at the range, but STILL having to walk down within 3m of the perp? He said, "we have a name for people who shoot oncomers at 300m without warning: we call them psychopaths and lock them up." The rules of politeness still apply in most every dissolving society, whether they should or shouldn't. Whether you were right or wrong. They still will ask accounting of how it came to be you were shooting at the limits of your gear and still felt yourself in "imminent peril of life and limb."

I find it far more difficult to imagine situations were I would be striking at people at the edge of the 7.62 range than almost any other survival occurance I can imagine.

Break and entry? Sure. Not having parts or ammo? Sure. Ambush by someone you trusted at point blank during a sale? Sure. Having your traps raided by man and animals and returning home hungry? Sure. Kidnapping of loved ones? Definitely. Having strangers come up on the porch and case the house? Sure. Having strangers that I already know are deadly stand inside the range of a 7.62 but outside the range of a AK, in an area where barns, trees, houses and hostages don't make that irrelevant? I'm covered for a lot of things, but that's definitely a personal gap.

In the big west, I can understand how this could be truly useful. For instance, if someone failed a raid and fled, you'd have a huge distance to fire the powerful .308, disable the car, and finish them at leisure. Or sit at a perimeter scoping a neighbors where you expect trouble has already occured, waiting to see.

But a "Survivalist cartridge"? I don't know that there is or could be one. The cartridge is the one you have. If all you had was a box of, say 40 year-old 9mm, and had to make a zip gun, then that would be your survival tool. You'd have to use it to its limitations. I couldn't guess ahead of time what would be best, because I don't know what the specific job would be.

I would say that, if you were in closer cover, range might not be your key requirement. Bear were taken in the Old West with all manner of things, including traps, powder, bows, spears, .32bp pistols, and everything else. Grizzlies are fine with a .44, .45 or whatever. In cover, what I'd want is something adequate but light. The 30-30 has taken as many deer as any. Men are no tougher than deer. Yet the 30 is an "underpowered" cartridge. It works fine.

So even if underpowered, something light, common, and cheap. Preferably simple and reliable. In survival situation, I can hardly imagine needing multiple shots, although I might. How about the M6 .410/.22LR? Surprised? Why not? If we're talking about a survival cartridge, to me it seems nothing will beat the most common of all cartridges, that is still deadly to humans, deer, and if necessary, bear. The other likely survival thing are birds, or perhaps more instant stopping power. The .410 is also underpowered, but will stop a man, and as a backup round. No real breakable parts.

I'd go for this as survival cartridge. If not, then the AR7, etc, and certainly, again, a .22LR. FerFal points out that through all of several wars, falls, and revolutions in Argentina, his father had nothing more than a .22 carbine. Either did many of ours through the war, on the ranch or farm, in the Prohibition runs, and anywhere else. It's smallest, lightest, cheapest, most available, most disposable, least traceable, and still works at non-western distances. If you have a problem with it, use two rounds. Or three, or ten.

You'd just have to respect the limitations of the cartridge as well, like any other tool.

...Now if you needed to shoot through a car or into a cinderblock house, well that's a whole other matter.

TS

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Won it in a card game. Lost $400 in the same card game.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sometimes, it's easier to get forgiveness than to get permission...

Besides, the couch isn't THAT lumpy, is it?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Thought-provoking point, TS... thanks!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I don't think anyone needs to do that. It's been done enough already :wink:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Wallew, that is classic......:applause_

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Well, I for one could think of a need for longer range rifle...

How about picking off U.N. soldiers or other invading army at distance--does give you time to disappear...

I can't believe any SHTF or TEOTWAWKI situation would require me to be beholdin' to "Roberts Rules of Engagement"...

Allowing someone to approach to "point blank range" might be a fatal mistake.

:smokin:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I never really liked Chris Rock until I saw a short video where he said, "guns are for p@ssies - nothing better than sticking someone with a knife and seeing their 'lights go out' "

At least I THINK that's what he said.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Well boys,

Shall we dig into it?

Rather than get personal here, I will say that "precise aimed fire" is the ultimate purpose of a rifle. Also, once again, we are discussing a "survivalist cartridge".

What is the 7.62x39mm round?
Not a varmint round, too slow and too poor trajectory.
Not a hunting round, too light and too minimal velocity.
A plinking round? Sure, it's cheap and non-reloadable, so it is a throw away affair.
A people killing round? You Betcha! Like no other.


Why is the 7.62x39 not a survivalist cartridge? Several reasons:
1) Unique boltface dimension, no interchangability
2) Steel case, .310 bullet dimension & Berdan priming system, not practical for reloading.
3) Poor accuracy
4) Minimal power
5) Very limited range


Rather interesting to see a guy who says he is a gunsmith display so much rudimentary ignorance about rifles. From the comment a month or two back about how, "heavy barrels don't wear out as quick", I have had many doubts confirmed.

Sniping. Nobody talking about "sniping". However, if you own a rifle with fairly flat trajectory which is a function of ballistic coefficient and velocity, you have that potential.

Where did the term "sniper" originate? From gamekeepers in England/Scotland who maintained the gentry land holdings for hunting. These men and the Jaegermeisters of Germany had great skill with the high-powered rifles they used daily in their jobs and were the first longrange marksmen of WW1. These guys also knew how to camouflage themselves and move stealthily.

If anything, these skills would be more useful than your ability to run a 3gun course. Yet, many here seem to think they will be firing hundreds of rounds while on "patrol". Bullet proof vest or not, that sort of thinking will get you killed.


Not many here would choose a .30-30Win as a deer hunting round. Maybe a .30-30 makes a good truck window rifle, or a horse scabbard gun; but it is not usually what a rifleman would choose as his primary tool. Yet, the AK round, the 7.62x39mm is not even as good as the .30-30.

About the only thing that the 7.62x39 does well is that it works in cheap Communist country imported rifles, and some not so cheap.

The AK case is admittedly a wonder when sized down to .22PPC and 6mmPPC. A 45gr bullet or 60gr 6mm bullet is superb when fired from that case in a benchrest rifle. But these are mostly 100yd competitions fired with single shot bolt rifles. Nobody shooting a PPC is using steel case berdan primed ammo.


If you decide to take a reality tonic, I think you might see that the 7.62x39 is at best a close range cartridge designed to take human life and might also serve for small game at point blank ranges.

.308Win rifles are used in Palma competition at 1000 yds. They are rather special long barreled rifles, and sport open sights. Yet these show that the .308 has outstanding potential for accuracy and can make enough velocity to remain supersonic at 1000 yds. The potential is likewise there for shorter barrel rifles. In fact, most benchrest rifles have barrels of 20-22" which shows accuracy is not dependent on barrel length.

Modern American rifles by Savage, Winchester, and Remington are heavily accessoried. If you own one, you have access to many different picatinny rail and other mounting systems, plus custom stocks and triggers and other hardware. A powerful and accurate rifle is what any survivalist needs for primary reliance.

Want a semi-auto? Why not? The Armalite or Garand action designs offer great reliability and accurancy potential. That they chamber ammunition that is much preferred in capability is another plus for them and those who use them.

If you owned a variety of rifles including the .223 and .308 in semi-auto configuration (Ar-10, AR-15, M1, M1a, Mini-14) why would you ever reach for a 7.62x39? If you only owned an Ar-10 or M1, why would you ever reach for a 7.62x39??? Oh, maybe to kill a possum in the henhouse.... But a .22 pistol does that job without putting holes in the wall or roof.

I see the decision to rely on the 7.62x39 as one of rationalization and delusion, but if you don't; well, you pays your money and takes your chances!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

This is about how close I want to be with my target.

http://timburton.ifrance.com/mars-extrait.jpg

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Such an abundance of hogwash in that post, I just don't got the energy, so I'll just wrap up on your wrap up; care to guess how many guns every AK owner here owns besides their AK? Any guesses what caliber? Who's intentionally relying on just 7.62x39? We could argue caliber and situation for all eternity.

We are all aware that there are, in fact, other calibers and firearms capable of wounding and or killing humans, what a breakthrough huh. Very good. Point of thread is.... to garner 1 star and share your opinions? Stir things up?

Which fantasy is loonier, "Rambo" or "Sniper" :tongue_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

"The (survivalist) cartridge is the one you have."
This is why I always like to read GIM.
For statements like the above.
Haystackneedle

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I am much less concerned with "reliability" than "hit ability".

An A4 Armalite rifle is a superbly thought out rifle system. Own one and experience it for yourself. Integral picatinny scope rail is a great asset. Interchangeable uppers and numerous accessories make it a great system.

I sure don't get the idea of packing 40lbs of rifle, ammo and vest.
If you are planning to "need" that stuff as your daily kit, what on earth are you planning for? Such plans aren't remotely connected with self-sufficiency which is the focus of survivalism.

A survivalist who puts himself/herself into a situation where they even feel they MIGHT have to fight off the ravenous hordes is a failure.

It is amusing to see "the gunsmith" discuss openly how many cases of ammunition he stores and recommend others invest in ammunition and rifles. Likely, if you live in any town or city, there are ordinances regarding the storage of ordnance. It amazes me to see what people will state on public forums.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

while i dont know a lot about guns this makes a lot of sense to me staying alive can be as much or more about avoiding fighting a war as being prepared for it?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hey Money, sometimes you say some strange things.

SB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

eats pretty good if you can get around that "fishy" taste






Just weighed a box of 7.62x39 in at 13 ounces and a box of 30-06 165 grain in at 24 ounces. How much can you carry of each?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Eek! What if your tack-driving rifle fails to fire, because it's not very reliable, since its "hitability" was more valued than its reliability? It can be the best-shooting gun out there, but if it's not shooting, what good is it?

Rev pointed out earlier (or was it in another thread?) that an average AK will land shots in a 4" group at 100 yards. Not as precise or "hit-able" than many rifles, but it'll fire every time. Sometimes the idea is to simply put some shots downrange. Sometimes the mere presence of rounds flying at someone will be enough to deter them or hold them back. This even holds true in video games. :D :haha: I think I'd prefer to be able to send rounds at someone always, even if I can only hit a target the size of the palm of their hand, than be able to hit a target the size of their eyeball, but risk not being able to fire at all.

I guess what I'm saying is I'd prefer a very inaccurate gun that will fire every time to one that is very accurate but I can't count on it to fire. It just seems obvious to me. And are any of the firearms being discussed that inaccurate where we'd have to worry about hitting a man or large animal size target at reasonable distances?

Or maybe we can just go back to the compromise of... to each his own, and why not get one of each? A 500-yard scoped wonder, and a can't-hit-the-broadside-of-a-barn but dead reliable AK (exaggeration thrown in for the effect of sarcasm :D). May as well toss in a 12 gauge and a decent pistol, while we're at it. :wink:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Im not a very expert marksman nor do I claim to be, but I have two stamped steel AKs, one is the thicker 1.6mm both made by arsenal USA and @ 300 yards I can hit a man sized target every time,open sights, and i dont think i am using the gun to its full potential.

now, how many rifles can do that and fold up into a regular sized backpack? legally? (I do this very often) M4? needs a special permit and cant fold up because the spring sticks back about 8 feet behind the receiver. you can get the detachable carbon fiber buttstock but then you are paying a lot for a survival gun that you expect to throw around in a backpack or duffel bag. garand action guns? I guess they can get pretty small if you shell out for one of those goofy looking sliding stocks. FN FAL? LOL.

When I think of survival gear, I think of shit bundled up together in an easy to carry package that you can throw behind your pickuptruck seat or something like that for safekeeping for a rainy day. for around 500 bucks, you cant really beat an AK, IMO.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I was gonna stay out of this and watch the fur fly, but this guy makes sense.

Regards,

HUB

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I own a 7.62x39 rifle, and I plan on getting another one. I am not going to be shooting matches with it, but I will be practicing as much as I want on the cheap ammo that I can afford. There are no buffalo in these parts to hunt. I expect that the weapon will be reliable, and parts easily available (extra parts rifles are cheap too). I can't conceive of any situation that would require me to shoot at anything beyond 100-200 yards. (and I don't really expect to need a BR at all, but more likely my SA handgun would see duty in a SHTF scenario)

I don't see how 7.62x39 is a bad choice for me, but maybe I'm just a n00b.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

.............................

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Maybe it's just me ... but if the house I'm sneaking up on suddenly starts throwing lead ... I'm not gonna wait about to see how accurate he is. I'm backing out ... RFN. In the nature of owning a big dog ... I want the gun with the loudest bark. If they're coming in anyhow ... precision shooting isn't gonna make a damn bit of difference at range. It's also known as being able to hit precisely where he ... was.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Everyone bashes on the 7.62*39 accuracy, but I agree with Low Five. At 300 yards, I hit a 2 by 3 foot plate 7 out of 10 shots. This is with no scope. With a scope, the same is probably possible at 500 yards. For me, thats excellent accuracy!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

The title of this thread should be, "The 7.62x39 is not a long distance hunting cartridge..."

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I don't know why you even bother to respond to MM's drivel, because that's what it is.

He's NOW BACK to how long a 'SNIPER BARREL' lasts. As has been PROVEN on this forum, his statement that 600 rounds and a barrel loses it's accuracy have been shown as INCORRECT. MM PROVIDED some of the sources that proved that as a lie.

Like I said, he sits at his computer, goes over to all his 'long range shooting' (aka SNIPER) forums and gets all jazzed up and then comes here and spouts THEIR ignorance.

MM, put the pipe down for a while. It's ONLY making you look like a fool.

Every single statement you made was incorrect. I've proven it time and again, but you just keep running out the same set of 'dead horses' to make yourself feel better.

GROW UP. BETTER YET, GO AWAY. YOUR IGNORANCE IS ALMOST TOO PAINFUL TO WATCH.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I wonder if the AK had a longer barrel, say 20 or 22 inches, would the round have more muzzle FPS's and perform better.

that para FAL is sexy.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

lf,
yes. Lots of folks here have one.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

My saiga has a 22 inch barrel.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

There is a difference between a survivalist and a survivor.

A survivor is somebody who goes down with the Titanic, but bobs back up from the depths, and gets rescued.

A survivalist is someone who anticipates and prepares for the situation(s) he/she envisions/realizes will affect society and therefore his/her family.

Got PM stocks, options other metals paper investments? You envision the metals bull market, but have no awareness of any further risk to your situation. Got Physical metals only? You likely see the potential ruin of paper and have prepared for your investments to survive the risks.
Got preparations for Self-Sufficiency? Deployed your wealth to ownership of gear, food, tools, and PMs? Congrats on your foresight and fortitude to trust your vision and take action.

Self-sufficiency is the HallMark of survivalist effort and planning; it is the defining characteristic of those planning to be in a position to respond rather than to react to calamitous or disastrous events/circumstances that may confront them personally and as members of society at large.

To my way of thinking, any and every survivalist will have some set of skills and all necessary tools to preserve their way of life and its comforts.

Perhaps you are preparing only for a temporary interruption of goods and services in the marketplace? Maybe for societal collapse?


All the above is background info. Qualifiers for the central thesis of my discussion. A survivor will grasp whatever tools he/she can to stay afloat. Such is a reaction to an event not planned for. The 7.62x39 offers many upgrade benefits over archery eqpt and sharp sticks, so it definitely has utility value and use.

The survivalist rejects the 7.62x39 because it has many drawbacks and limitations, one of the most limiting being the inability to reload 99% of empty shell casings, and inability to share standard .308 diameter bullets.

Are the shortcomings critical? Yes, in a survival planning situation they are.

As seen on this thread there is confusion about the value of precision rifle fire versus slinging lead. Survivalist Planning and thinking is not done with a mind to deliberately choose gear which imposes significant limitations and sacrifices when other choices are available.

Berdan primed, steel cased ammunition is a throw-away proposition.
A 2300fps 120 gr fmj bullet is very minimal in terms of power and trajectory.

Being able to place accurate fire upon a target, even a relatively small target, is the purpose of a rifle. Having the confidence that your piece and its ammunition can deliver a hit where you aim is a great morale booster. Being able to hit a 24"x12" steel plate at 300 yds may be all you ever need to do; but many rifles firing 150-200 gr bullets can place 5rds at high velocity within 2" at that range, when fired from a rest. Service Rifle competitors place 10rds inside 3" firing with only a sling and shooting coat/glove.

A survivalist needs all the benefits he/she can avail for themselves and their families.

The AK-47 and SKS firing 7.62x39 might be a great addition to a survivalist's planning; IF they were expecting to undertake an urban militia role or needed to outfit a private security force. Cheap centerfire ammunition to provide to those being paid to bear arms is a nice economic benefit.

If you are a survivalist who has no need to supply a security detail, and have chosen .223Rem, .308Win, or .30-06 for your armament; why would you also have need to own any firearms in 7.62x39???

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Suki-tawdry,

Yeah, if anybody is an armchair sorta guy, I'm sure it is you.

Not much reason to pay the top money required to obtain boxer primed brass cases for the 7.62x39. And which 120 gr bullet do you prefer?

I bought some RWS Berdan primers years ago from The Old Western Scrounger. That guy was the only source in the country and they were expensive as hell. I also deprimed a few milsurp 7.62x51, as an experienced handloader it was more trouble than it was worth. Ruined more cases than not.

But, I guess you know otherwise; from your lazyboy perch, you know all about berdan primed ammunition.

Another 7.62x39 cohort was discussing the 145gr Wolf softpoint for deer hunting. Yeah, a .225 ballistic coefficient bullet, moving 2000fps is a formidable hunting load; NOT.

Yeah, it makes lots of sense to pay $12-$18 for 20 rds of commercial brass cased ammunition in a slow-coach cartridge. There is the real rub. That and the fact that there is no other ctg that uses a .447 head diameter?

Kind of doubtful about your cowboy action armed .45-70 guy also. Must be many romantic ideas floating round your living room as you pilot that lazyboy in cyberspace. Not a whole lot of versatility from a tube magazine lever gun, especially when 250/300gr bullets are as light as they come and fly with rainbow trajectory.

Aside from simple desire and cost, the AK 47 and SKS don't offer the flexibility which someone who makes a plan and then works that plan can benefit from. They are fun blasters I am sure. Would be fun to plink with. Nice that so many enjoy them. But....

Anyway, enjoy your weekend in your lazyboy cockpit; you've earned it!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

So you envision having to use your survival weapon from a bench using a rest? What kind of chit do you smoke man? Better question: What kind of chit do you think you'll be shooting at that range? Squirrel? Will squirell head shots be practical from a .308 or better? Will anything edible be left of said squirrel?

I shoot my kalashnikovs from iron sights and can drop just about anything that moves at 100 yards. Cheap ammo, cheap parts and so simply operated children literally can use it. Sure, I'm not going to be doing any assasinations with them, that's what the Drangunov/Tiger is for.

Apples and Oranges buddy. :confused_ma:

One serious question: How about 5.45x39? Any "opinions".

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Let's actually look at reloading components and what is available:

Looking at Wideners.com which is one of the best discount reloading suppliers, I found no once-fired brass or brass of any kind for the 7.62x39. They do have a 123 grain fmj bullet w/cannelure for $18/100, and a bullet mold for casters.

Looking at Graf & Sons, they sell Lapua brass for $36/100 and loaded lapua ammunition for $25/50. Actually a very good deal if you want the best. In a bolt rifle, with custom barrel it could be superb. $50 per 100 is a bit much for most 47 & SKS users, I imagine. Win/USA ammo is $16/20. Win brass is the same cost as Lapua; go w/Lapua, undoubtedly. The same Hornady Bullets are higher at Grafs than Wideners.


If the bullet diameter of the AK round was .308, the world would be your oyster; at least if you want a low velocity close range rifle. Would beat the pants off the .308Win at Hunter Benchrest if the rules allowed it... The case is superb in 6mm and .22 caliber PPC renditions, (actually .220 Russian cases), but they came from the 7.62x39 parent case.

There is reloading gear available, mainly from Lee Engineering, as far as my search results show. The fact that cost of brass is much higher than for new .308, .30-06, or .223, and bullets are likewise more expensive simply shows there is not much demand or the mfrs would have the components and bullets out there.

There is a very good market for once-fired brass. Wideners sells it and many other resellers have websites offering deals if you want cheap brass. 1000 pcs of 1x fired Win mil brass in .223 is $55. A very good deal for some excellent product. No company I could find sells any 1x 7.62x39 brass. Must not be any boxer primed cases out there in sufficient qty or the resellers who get their stuff from ranges, police depts and other end-use sites, just don't bother looking for it among all the Berdan steel-case junk.

Pretty hard to rationalize adapting this round with its inherent limitations, when you realize that you will not have much access to resupply or reloaded ammunition. Armies or sponsored militia will have access to ammunition. If your rifle can use their discarded cases, and you have reloading gear and components you might scrounge up some ammo.

Not much 7.62x39 being loaded in the USA. Most production is .223, .308, and 9mm these days for the war. FEMA has contracted for 5 years production at a huge amount. Cost of imported 7.62x39 can only rise with $100 oil and dropping dollar.

Not much reason for the survival planner to choose an AK or SKS. Not much advantage other than cheap ammo. Great if you love plinking and blasting, just poor economy if you're serious about preparedness and self-sufficiency.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Did you ever think to yourself "hmm, MM, I guess no one shoots brass through a SKS/AK".

Thank you captain obvious for the DL on the shortage of once fired 7.62x39 brass.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Suki,

What fun! Lets talk about the wonderful versatility of the .45-70.
What magazine did you pull that from?
You have cannisters of FFG black powder just laying around, do you?

Black powder is very much inferior to smokeless. Gonna mix up salt peter, sulfur, and sugar are you? Cut the tips off of SA matches for priming compound? What a plan!

I realize there are lots of options with the .45-70, .45-90, .45-120, .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin. Those 405gr bullets at 1800fps are just the thing; IF you are a reenactor playing hide hunter, or a guy hiking in Brown Bear territory, it is just the thing.

What great romance the lazyboy brigade foments! Yeah, that 45-70 is just the thing for taking that whitetail deer at 300 yds, maybe 400+ when you see your only chance for meat drifting ghostlike into the timber...

A .45 caliber lever gun is a fast reaction specialty rifle, but a bolt action in .458 Win Mag, American, or Lott would be a better choice. Can use pointed bullets in them, see? A barnes pointed bullet could be a decent deer or elk gun. But why would you own one in the lower-48, aside from fun? A Shiloh-Sharps is a really fine gun, as is a Ruger #1, but there is no reason to choose one for survival purposes.

A .30-30 is more versatile than the .45-70. Unless you live in Big Bear country, what is going to eat you if you can't put it down right away? You can, of course shoot pointed bullets in a lever gun; just can't load them in the tube magazine. Hornady ammo to the contrary.

If you like a lever action. The Win 1895 in .30-06, the Win 88 in .243, .308, or .358, the Savage 99 in .243 & .308, and the Browning BLR in .243 & .308 are suitable candidates for the survivalist. Also the Sako Finnwolf.

Decisions in all walks of live, that are rationalized, are seldom satisfactory.
On Kodiak Island, you might be better off with a .45-70 rifle (not carbine), or maybe you just wouldn't traipse around in the thick alders unless the bear are hibernating. If you live in a swamp or dense thicket area, have only an AK-47, then maybe you are suitably armed to survive. Most live in mixed environments and don't have 800lb bears around.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

suki said,

"Some people who are not without a clue prefer the .45-70 as a *survivor's* choice as their ultimate round 'cause the .45-70 is extremely versatile and the case can be loaded full of black powder in a pinch.

Anyone who can't master a .45-70 with it's rainbow trajectory is a poor marksman who is wanting to blame their equipment for their poor results."


Now, that stuff up there; that's just funny. That "stuff" is just pure pipedream hypothesis. Yeah, we all benefit when we shoot the slow-coach cartridges with rainbow trajectories. You crack me up Suki! That is about the most clueless statement I have seen since "thick barrels last longer".

Ever seen a buffalo or a moose? Pretty big targets, but rather doubtful any old buffalo hunter wouldn't have given his left nut for a flat shooting magnum or .308Win.

Dial up all you want on Midway. It would be pretty damn stupid for anyone to choose the 7.62x39 for any reason other than shooting other human beings. The only thing that makes the round effective is large magazine capacity and semi-auto delivery of up to 40 or more slugs.

You can kill deer all day long with a .22LR semi auto. Likely any 10/22 will group better at 75yds than the average AK or SKS. A 10/22 will likely serve the survivalist in many more ways than an AK or SKS could. At least you wouldn't take false confidence that you have a "high-powered" rifle. I never heard anyone call a .30-30 a "high-powered" rifle, it was always just a thutty-thutty. Well the AK/SKS is even less powerful, so what are they? Not even a deer gun. I have seen racoons that were hard to kill. Maybe the AK/SKS are ideal for those masked bandits?

The 7.62x39 is sure not worthy of much more than being a tool for war.
If that is what you're preparing for, I think you have misunderstood the situation, or you need to volunteer so you can play with all the bigboy toys...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Kinda bitchy, ain't ya?

Suki-Tawdry wants to come weigh in with some fact-crap he knows nothing about and gets his feelings hurt if somebody doesn't rah-rah his ".45-70 a superior all around cartridge" baloney.

Nothing personal here, you own one of those rifles?
I Do own a .450 Marlin guide gun. I take it on fishing treks with my kids. It is a protection piece, not an all-around, all-purpose rifle.

Suki wants to rationalize all this shit and then figures his viewpoint matters.

If you are a young guy, who went through the educational system without getting anything more than lots of self-esteem, I am sorry for you.

Anyone who feels threatened because another guys questions their selection of tools is just being silly. I don't know what any of you own and don't really care. It is my perspective that if you have chosen to rely on the 7.62x39 as a primary weapon or hunting tool, you have miscalculated.

No law against being wrong, but it just might cause you hardship you might have avoided.

I've ignored your Commie plane loving ass for a longtime suki; so the feeling is mutual.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

mm, I'm still wondering if you have a response to my earlier statement.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yeah, Wallew is the gunsmith with a degree. He knows it all and blusters like the March Wind about stuff he has no clues about.

Wasn't me who said "heavy (contour) barrels last longer"; it was our Resident Gunsmith who knows jack about accuracy rifles.

I stand by my point that a .338 Lapua Magnum will burn out a barrel in 600 rds fired. Wallew, doesn't even know what a .338 Lapua Magnum is. He confused it with the .338 Ultra Mag which is a much smaller Remington ctg. But Wallew knows everything, about nothing.

I am discussing the 7.62x39 here. Wallew (kind of like Ballew the lumbering dumbass bear from Kipling's The Jungle Book) comes on and says, "What about the 7.62x54R in the Dragunov?" If you take your medication Wally, and read the threads you will see nobody but you is talking about that gun or that ctg; but no.

This dip (Wallew) is unable to be civil; and doesn't have a friggin clue about much that I've seen.

Oh yeah; how about he says he has to set every trigger at 5lbs otherwise his customer might get sued. What horse dung!

I cite Gale McMillan, one of the greatest experts that ever lived on Tactical and Competitive rifle building, talking about barrel throats being burned out in 1200 rds (on .308 size ctgs, not Super Magnums like the Lapua that burn 120 gr of powder) and Wallew replies stupidly. Wallew never heard of a Tubb2000 competition rifle I guess. McMillan's firm (he is deceased) makes the Tubb2000 which is the finest production HighPower competition rifle. Wallew is clueless.

What fun these discussions are!

I do own a switchbarrel Sako TRG42 mr Wally, and I am the guy who does the switchbarreling and finishes the chambers. From what I've read you describe on that Sako TRG thread and elsewhere, you've never even seen one of these rifles, much less worked on one. But I am a "troll".

What was the BS you said about MM is giving info out that is going to get someone killed? More horse crap! Never set a Remington 700 trigger, I guess. They are damn safe at 2lbs, very dependable. But you are a poser not a gunsmith.

Then there was Wally telling everyone that Brownells would sell him a Rem 700 action because he is a graduate gunsmith. Wally didn't know the Brownells hasn't sold Rem actions for a couple of years. He has never said if he has an FFL or not. Brownells sure won't sell to any gunsmith that doesn't have an FFL, Wally; but you don't know that.


What a hoot! Yeah there are hundreds of accuracy gunsmiths and rifle builders who could learn a bunch from Wallew. Maybe, maybe if they wanted to go back to the matchlock age of firearms knowledge. That would be around the renaissance, though wouldn't it. That is what he claims to be. I will give him that; renaissance era gunsmith, sure.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Guys, I'm sorry if I'm interrupting your catfight, but since I hadn't weighed in with my own worthless opinion yet...

MM, you said In Alaska, where you are, that would do you no damn good at all. I'm in a city in Northern California, and it suits my needs perfectly. Just as there are many different calibers and actions to meet different needs, so too are there different levels of "Survivalist". I have a Yugo SKS, and about 1K of ammo for it, and I have no illusions about hunting deer with it. The only deer in danger of being shot by me would be in a petting zoo, and then only if they're penned. :embarasse

If I had my own land, far away from the city, and a means by which to support myself so that I could live there year-round, then I could start to look at rifles better suited for that area. But I don't have those things; I have a too-small apartment and debt I'm trying to eliminate, and I don't get to shoot as often as I'd like. The newest gun I own was made in the '70s; most are older than my parents.

I think what TheSimpleton (NOT!) posted said it best, so I'm going to modify your title: The 7.62x39 is not EVERY survivalists cartridge. It will work for me, with what I need to do to survive past a certain point. Past that point, which looks a lot like where your SHTF scenario will be starting (lots of wilds, few people, harsh climate, etc), I have other, more appropriate tools, and the SKS may serve as a handy doorstop. I certainly hope I survive to a point where an 800 yd shot is possible, useful, or necessary, but I don't need it right away. It doesn't make sense for me to make fine cuts with a scalpel when I need a machete to get through the brush.

If you have the skill and training to make those shots and survive the wilds of Alaska (and you aren't sitting in a cramped apartment in Anchorage :wink: ), then my hat is off to you--you've gotten to a place I can only hope to view from a distance.

But please, don't tell me that what works for you, there, is what is best for me, here.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sigh �.100+ posts. How sad this thread degraded into specious arguments, name calling and agendas. It makes me yearn for the good old days before the Internet. Remember the countless magazine articles with titles such as �Which is Better - .45 or 9mm�.:sarcasm:
Lewisly Speaking,
Mod1

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

ha! everybody knows it's the 40! LOL

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Actually it's the .357SIG :P

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Many of the arguments being made here about the 7.62x39 are simply suppositions. For example, it does not hold true that a .25 ballistic coefficient bullet will hold its 4moa capability at 100yds at extended distance.

The "fact" which some here have alleged, that better made (and far more expensive) weapons firing the 7.62x39 can perform better, does not translate to any improvement in the ammunitions performance.

Looking at the Sierra manual, a 125gr .308 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2300fps is traveling at 1124fps at 500yds. Sighted in at 100yd zero the bullet will drop 116" at 500yds. There is virtually no scope or sight which has movement sufficient to compensate for the bullet drop. Even zeroed at 300yds, the drop becomes 81" at 500yds. Even with a 30moa canted scope base, a scope still must have 50" of turret elevation. I don't know if anyone makes canted scope bases for the AK. I've never noticed or heard of one. The ammunition is also limited on performance having 350 ft lbs of energy at 500yds.

The 150gr match bullet starting at 2900fps from a .308Win drops 70" at 500yds when zeroed at 100yds and still has 1138 ft lbs of energy at 500 yds. At 1000 yds it still has 400 ft lbs of energy. Zeroed at 300yds it drops 30 inches at 500 yds. Add a 30moa cant scope base and you are able to have a system that is capable of delivery at 1000 yds.

Perhaps our survivalist is a one gun shooter? A .30-06 Ackley Improved would enable about a 200fps gain in velocity. Shooting a 200gr match bullet @2800fps, zeroed as above, gives the same trajectory, but puts 1860 ft lbs of energy on the target way out there at 500yds.

An Ackley Improved chamber allows standard .30-06 ammunition to be used, but gives significant performance improvement. Velocity ranges from about 3500fps with a 110 grain bullet to about 2700FPS with a 250gr bullet. Barnes solids in one of these will give you penetration comparable to a mini-50BMG. Speer may even still make their Tungsten bullet if you want special purpose rounds.


The comments here are not meant to insult or scare those who have chosen the 7.62x39 for whatever their reasons. Yet, facts are facts. The ability to take game is a function of energy. The ability to hit at distance is a function of bullet trajectory and ballistic coefficient, assuming the shooter is competent. We can conjecture all day long about what the "accurate" AK or SKS can do. If you look at the performance data you must conclude that you'd better have every ounce of mojo you've ever hoped for to make a shot at 500yds.

A .308 AR-10 is capable of doing so all day long, and when the bullet arrives, the target is tagged for good. At closer range, the increased power and bullet mass are even more relevant. That the .308Win is (aside from the .22lr), the most developed accuracy round in the world simply gives those who use it that much more opportunity to take what they need of the round's potential to benefit their needs.

A survivalist will choose those tools he/she has access to that serve them best. There is no benefit to the survivalist in selecting the AK/SKS or 7.62x39 cartridge.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM,
I've FIRED a .338 bolt action rifle less than three years ago. It was used during Viet Nam as a snipers weapon - still had the original issue scope. VERY nice example. The guy only wanted $4000 for it.

MM, as USUAL, you've been over at the long range shooters forum and have once again strayed into territory that you are COMPLETELY unfamiliar with.

You've YET to post a single picture of ANY weapon you've built or even worked on. According to YOU, the .308 is THE END ALL CARTRIDGE.

Sorry, but the 7.62x39 cartridge was (and still is) killing man, woman OR BEAST for more than five years before the 7.62x51 or .308 (civi version) was a wet dream of it's developers.

Yet you are an idiot. You like to talk about things 'you've SEEN' - silly ME, I talk about things I'VE DONE. WHICH YOU HAVE NOT.

You call me a dip? YOU ARE AN IDIOT. There, it's been said. YOU ARE AN IDIOT. You know WHY you are an IDIOT? Because you are discussing two cartridges that are the SAME DIAMETER. Yep folks, the 7.62x39 and the .308 (7.62x51) ARE the same diameter. The 7.62x51 is longer and therefore a heavier bullet.

WHICH IS THE EXACT REASON IT WAS REPLACED BY THE US MILITARY.

Mods, don't bother. You've allowed this absolute @sswipe to make personal attacks against EVERYONE who disagrees with him. He makes false statements and then when he's spanked by his own research he shuts up. FOR A WHILE. Then starts right back up again, FORGETTING that he's already covered this ground and been whacked before. I am TIRED of attempting to let eveyone else HERE know what a fool this guy really is. It's up to you now to do something.

But here we are, right back to where we started from :

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...438#post815438

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...438#post798438

Not ONLY is your information faulty, apparently so is your memory - here is but ONE thread where I specifically state .338 Lapaua IS the way to go:

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=178551

Yet ANOTHER THREAD where he attacks me for calling his information incorrect, which it IS:

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=187291

Well, there ya go. Only four posts. You want to REALLY see what MM is about? He ATTACKS EVERYONE who disagrees with him. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. And don't believe me, go read his past posts. They speak VOLUMES about how smart HE is and stupid EVERYONE ELSE HERE IS.

I've even tried to explain to him that not only is he wrong, but he's SO WRONG that even HIS OWN references are showing that HE'S WRONG.

MM, like I said. GO AWAY. You will be doing the REST OF US A HUGE FAVOR. But I'm not holding my breath.

He is still here. Attacking everyone. Hell, the ONLY REASON he started this thread was so he could attack EVERYONE WHO DISAGREED WITH HIM and all his buddies at the long range shooting (sniper) forum. It's obvious to everyone but him that he's WRONG. But heaven forbid you attempt to correct his delusions because that's when the personel attacks start, eh MM?

And yeah, 100 MILLION AK's and God knows HOW MANY SKS's are in private hands prove your point. They are a BAD CHOICE. WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Step back, take a deep breath, and let it out slowly
 

Money Matters is expressing an unpopular opinion, and I've stated my arguments against it. But is it possible to steer this back to reasoned discourse about the merits or lack thereof of various rounds? Because if it isn't the Mods ought to just shut this one down.

Perspective and coolness are survivalist traits too.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

It isn't that MM is expressing an unpopular opinion. It's that he trolls, deliberately lies and often just plain doesn't have any real clue what he's talking about. This isn't even a caliber debate. I like the .308 and other fullhouse .30cals. Most of us do. I own and am proficient with such rifles. They fill a different roll than the 7.62x39 in an autoloader. Most of us who actually know what we are talking about are just really tired of his BS. For instance I really don't want to have to explain to him that an AK's stock rear sight compensates for drop out to 800 meters for use against an area target or that purpose designed Russian military scopes built to interface with the side rail common to most modern AK-derived rifles have built in range finding and compensation.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Probably not the thread for learning as its getting Hot; but, What dose ballistic coefficient mean and are higher numbers better than lower numbers?

E-A

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

hehehehehee no don't shut this one down, it's fun to read if you have lived past having any real issue with what is being said. theys don't call em "gun nuts" for nuthin

I don't know a golfer that goes on the course with only one club. I am not a golfer but do know that I own over 80 fishing rods. I am not a professional carpenter, I do know that I own well over two score of a vast difference of sizes and weights of hammers if you start to count axes and sledges and have even made my own versions for special purposes. This is the public internet so I am damned well not going to tell you how many of what kind of guns I have, but I do have a "few". Many of them with special purposes.[he he he even have a "sleeper" turkey shoot special: an old beat-up jungle eaten 73 year old Brazilian Mauser that has been rebarreled with a tight chambered take off Husqvarna 23 1/2" 30-06 pencil barrel painted black to match the bubbaed-on old 6x Scopechief on top of it;looks like a POS but the gun will do sub 1/2 MOA all week long with handloads and has made me LOTS of money]. The SKS's that I do own were hand picked for accuracy from cases of unissued Russians that I bought over a dozen years ago for under a hundred $ apiece and resold to family and friends. They are true sub 2 moa rifles with the russian issue ammo obtained at the same time. They may well have a special use in the future, though I hope not and I hope they remain a unused stashed far away "cheap" insurance policy.

The old time proven flat nosed 30-30 round is almost identical in delivered energy to the 7.62x39 out past 50 yards and falls behind it and it's pointed bullets past 100 yards.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Wikipedia:
"The ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It is inversely proportional to the deceleration—a high number indicates a low deceleration. BC is a function of mass, diameter, and drag coefficient. It is given by the mass of the object divided by the diameter squared that it presents to the airflow divided by a dimensionless constant i that relates to the aerodynamics of its shape. Ballistic coefficient has units of lb/in² or kg/m²."

A high BC is good...SC

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

BC relates to aerodynamic performance, most importantly how quickly it will bleed velocity and consequently how flat it will shoot. High numbers are better and it is derived from bullet diameter, drag and mass. What does it mean in the real world? Well here is a comparison between the 6.8SPC and the 7.62x39, two rounds that compete in the same niche, both with a 150 yard zero. 7.62x39 is on top. The 7.62x39 has a BC of .267, the 6.8SPC has a BC of .292.


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At 300 yards the 7.62x39 will have about five inches more drop than the 6.8. At typical ranges under 200 yards there is less than 1 inch difference between them. The 6.8SPC is a great cartridge but the small real world advantage really isn't worth paying four or five times the cost per round imo.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Any jagoff on the internet who feels threatened when another opinion is offered calls the one offering it a "troll".

I don't have 80 fishing rods but I have built several deep sea rods from blanks and caught Blue Marlin with one. Trolling to me means hanging a tout off the outrigger of a 32' Bertram.

It is sure piss-ant to call somebody a liar when they have done no such thing.
Rev just has such low self-esteem and limited knowledge of firearms that he likely stammers and pisses himself when writing the replies he posts here.

What was that one about the 7.62x39 being a good elk cartridge.
Just please, show a post `82 one cent's worth of brains when you reply here.

There was a thread titled, "only one gun" which nailbender deleted. Anyone who makes pretense at being a "survivalist" will not have only one gun; not typically. But if he did, he sure wouldn't choose one chambered for the 7.62x39.


For Electric Amish request; Ballistic Coefficient is a function of bullet weight and aerodynamic characteristics. A long, relatively heavy bullet with aerodynamic slipperiness will have the least amount of drag in flight. The .308 and 7mm match bullets typically have the highest ballistic coefficients which means they drop less than other designs over the same distance.

The fact that the 7.62x39 has a very short bullet, not much weight and minimal velocity means it cannot perform with other cartridges.

A .30-30 when used in a bolt action (Rem 788) or Lever gun with magazine (savage 99, Browning BLR etc) or single shot can outperform the 7.62x39 by 200fps in terms of velocity for a 125gr loading. The same cartridge can be loaded to fire match bullets and boat-tailed soft points which have superior ballistic coefficients as well.

You got the $$ to stack a few crates of ammo and some SKS' or AKs under your mattress? Hurray. The more the merrier, but very doubtful anyone planning for survival situations would deliberately choose the 7.62x39 for any purpose but close-in self-defense. There are other rifles that can fill that role and other roles which the 7.62x39 cannot.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

the first time I took an ak to the 100 yard shooting range I shot down the motorized target, which was very embarrasing.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

i just dont think anything other than a 30-40 mag will work when there is a unruly mob of 30 or so outside my door.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

When I was a "bull cook" on track gangs for the ARR, made myself a "yogi special" from a 30-06 Remington742 that looked like it had been dropped from an airplane when I bought it for $90 from a pawn shop on 4th Avenue. Cut off the bad end of the barrel to 18" made and soldiered on new sights and painted it up in three coats of railroad black enamel. But, I really wanted something like one of those fancy Model 36 450 Alaskans. But I was a poor boy and had to make-do. One of those Marlin Guide Guns sure would be nice to have up there in big bear country, but down here an old 30-30 works just fine.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Thought this "survivalist" situation through a long long time ago in 93 and what I decided to do was to place as many cheap tough reliable russian SKS's and rounds of 7.62x39 in the hands of as many family and friends as I could. So I bought cases of rifles and cases of ammo and resold them for little or no profit. Sold them with a half case of ammo for much less than two hundred. The rifles are worth up close to five now and everbody thinks that I am such a fine fellow for giving them such a deal. Actually I was protecting my worthless 'surviver' hide. And I really don't care if it is one of my 80 year old aunts or my buddy's 12 year old kid that fires the straight shot that saves it.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

hoot...Good thinking. I did the same thing myself.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

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Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

the ak guy embarrased himself by
1) not being able to hit paper @ 200 yards
2) pulling the trigger like its a garden rake or something

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I'm a noob, but isn't it more important that the AK rifles are very durable/indestructible in a SHTF situation?
You'll want it to be able to cope with extreme situations since you'll be spending a lot of time (the rest of your life?) out in nature gathering/harvesting food (lots of mud/water/rocks etc). Just a thought.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

For a survivalist, having a weapon that will function when that 'tack driving wall hanger' has long since failed IS of vital importance.

Even if all you are doing is protecting you and your family or tribe. Even if you are not hunting/gatherer for your clan. Having the ability to protect you and yours with a functioning rifle IS one of the main issues a survivalist will face.

Having spare parts for said weapon is an EXCELLENT idea.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Nice try Mr Everything Expert. If the .308 and 7.62 x 39 use the same bullets explain these two links to me:

30 Caliber (.308)

303 Caliber, 7.7mm Japanese, 7.62x39mm (.310-.312)

You are clearly full of shit. While .308 bullets may work in an AK, they are not the same diameter. How someone with your supposed knowledge wouldn't know this basic info is beyond me.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Anyone who calls himself a "gunsmith" who cannot understand that a .308 diameter and .310 diameter are not interchangeable has outed themselves as a complete dimwit and a poser of the highest degree.

A 7.62x39 barrel, being .310" diameter cannot seal the gas if a .308 bullet is fired. Wow! 1000+ degree farenheit gasses rushing past the undersized bullet as fast as they can make it out the bore. That the way you build those Custom Rifles you brag on, Ballew? Not too concerned about the physics and proven techniques of modern gunsmithing, are you?


The point of survivalism is anticipation of societal breakdown, or desire to live in a more self-reliant manner. Typically, one leads to the other, whether you adapt a "retreat" or "homestead" approach. Usually both preclude the metropolis lifestyle. Unless you have significant physical barriers between you and the city environs, usually about 100-150 miles and 20-30 miles off main US or Interstate highway is desirable. You see, the survivalist realizes all his efforts are enhanced by relocating away from the problem.

The AK is not of real substantial value to the survivalist because he/she has purposefully pre-positioned themselves in a place where there is little expectation of the ravenous horde effect. Maybe the survivalist owns a battlerifle? Likely he will also own a bolt rifle in the same caliber which sees more daily use. A .308 loaded with 110 or 125gr bullets can serve as a pretty decent varmint rifle. A .308 bolt gun built on a Long Action can seat those extra heavy bullets and give potential for Moose, Elk or other heavy animal.

If there is any cartridge that is almost perfect for an all-around utility rifle, it is the .308 Winchester. Maybe you have reasons to favor the .223? It has a lot to offer. Who can go wrong with the .30-06? Then there are another 15 commercial rounds that are based on these same cases which offer greater potential for special purpose situations.


I wonder how many times it needs to be said? If you live somewhere which makes you feel the necessity to be making plans to defend yourself from the hordes; you need to move.

If you have made your plans wisely, you won't delude yourself that you can fire thousands of rounds in self-defense and continually come through unscathed. But maybe you will have your own trauma surgeon and team to patch you up, and a med-evac on standby? Why not? If you're making plans to save the world, you should do it in style!

I am still amazed by ol' Rev who has his 40lb "load" of AK, ammo and vest. I guess he figures about 25lbs of ammo is about right for a days action. Reminds me of Ralphie in Xmas Story shooting at black Bart's boyz with Ol' Blue his Red Ryder bb-gun (w/compass in the stock!). Maybe Rev has a compass inlaid in his AK stock?

What holiday fun this thread is turning out to be!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

If long range accuracy is what it is all about, shouldn't y'all be stocking up on 6.5X55? :wink:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Bill,
Silly ME. I just measured THE DIAMETER of several examples of each bullet in my stock. Guess what?

7.62x39 - .308 - .310, depending upon which one I was measuring - Wolf SP, Golden Tiger FMJ and some older HP rounds I've put up for reloading - if you need a history lesson on Russian firearms and ammunition, this forum IS NOT the place - I suggest you read up on the development of Russian weapons from WWII and forward.

7.62x51 - .308 - .309, again depending up which bullet I measured (all FMJ) - Lake City, South African, and some Sierra Match King bullets.

OMG HERE'S ANOTHER ONE...

7.62 x 25 - .308 for all ten I calipered and then mic'd them, either Romanian or Bulgarian. This caliber was designed for the Tokarev (Russian, Polish, Romanian, Hungarian or Chinese versions) and the CZ52 pistols or the PPSh41 and the PPS43 WWII carbines.

UH, BILL, you are aware that the '7.62' are the SAME dimension in each round - a variance is given in the conversion from American inches - ie the CIVILIAN .308 round - and the Euro millimeters - ie military NATO SPEC 7.62 - YOU DO KNOW THAT, YES?

Plus SAAMI specs are the same, with variances allowed of between one and two thousandths of an inch. FYI a human hair is .003 (three thousandsth of an inch). Also an EXCELLENT REASON TO HEADSPACE any military firearms you are using, cause if they are worn to the point of being 'out of spec' you are susceptible to a 'KABOOM'...

SO, a US GOV ISSUED THIRTY CALIBER BULLET, whose diameter is .308 and the British issued .303 caliber bullet would add THREE THOUSANDSTH to the thirty caliber dimension (.308) and you would end up right where you should be - somewhere between .310 and .311.

The info below comes from "Cartridges of the World, 8th edition" written by Frank Barnes. He has issued a newer one - , as the one I have was published about ten years ago (1997) which is when I purchased it.

Little Billy, you and M&M are now dismissed and can now go run and play, because neither of you are obviously ready to move up to the 'adults table' until you can start getting your facts straight. Like the specs for MILITARY FIREARMS. That might be a great place to start. Especially when ONE of the firearms you are commenting on IS AMMUNITON FOR A MILITARY FIREARM (7.62x39).

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/a...1&d=1195953234

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

What are you going on about? I don't care about the bullets you pulled from your 7.62 x 39 ammo. If they measured .308 that's called piss poor quality control.

You said the .308 and 7.62 x 39 are the same diameter:

I said you are full of shit. Here is an article by someone I would consider an expert:

The 7.62x39 Soviet (Model 43)

By Chuck Hawks

This attenuated .303 cartridge (bullet diameter is .311", not .308" like true 7.62mm rifles) has had one of the most infamous careers in the history of firearms. Full article here

Bullet diameter is .311", not .308" like true 7.62mm rifles.

What don't you understand about that?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Why I've chosen what I have - is because it works for me. I hope.

The AK platform (Saiga/Vepr) is reliable and in .308 accurate enough. The .308 is widely available and versatile enough to fulfill most roles I envision needing it for. And of course, silver bullets fly truer and farther.

Two of the biggest objections to .308 can be overcome by reloading. The first is cost. Reusing brass and buying milsurp 147 grain bullets makes shooting this round about the same and perhaps even cheaper than 7.62R.

The second complaint is that it's too powerful. This can be broken down into two issues. One being the heavier recoil means follow-up shots will take longer than with the "easier shooting" 7.62R. If one wants, just load up rounds with lighter bullets and charges and make bullets that aproximate the 7.62R in "fireability." The other sub-issue is really a non-starter. The rationale is '90% of engagements will be within a few hundred yards and 800+ yard capabilities is just overkill.' Probably mostly true, but the one time you really, really need the range, it'll be really, really nice to have it.

Something that is a product of the power of the .308 round but frequently overlooked, from a positive perspective, is penetration. After the first few rounds go off in a gunfight, those that can are either hightailing it out of there or hunkering down behind something. The .308 is great for turning into concealment what would be great cover for the 7.62R or .223.

As to load-outs. Yes, the .308 is heavier = less bullets. Based on your own strategic and tactical thinking and the randomness of situations you will encounter, each of these rounds has it's own trade-offs & benifits on the scale from .22lr to .50BMG.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

My vote is a .338 Lapua Magnum, but any cartridge that keeps you alive is a survivalist cartridge. :bear_w00t:


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Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Little Billy,
I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF you are incorrect. And YES, the 7.62x39 is indeed a TRUE 7.62 round, whether your little mind can absorb that information or not.

Heaven forbid someone take the ACTUAL DIAMETER of RUSSIAN MADE AMMUNITION FOR THE RUSSIAN DESIGNED AND RUSSIAN (Hungarian, Romanian, Chinese, Arab, USA, et al) made AK-47's and prove you incorrect.

The ONE THING YOU FAIL TO GRASP is these weapons WILL CHAMBER AND FIRE AMMUNITION made by ALMOST ANYONE. And those spec's vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. And most bullets WILL EXPAND under the pressure of being fired by as much as two thousands of an inch, as the lead bullet or copper wrapped lead or steel core bullet will seal itself quite well. But you don't know that. There is SO MUCH you don't know that it can (and does) fill numerous volumes. That I've not only read, but have in my library. And you don't even know who SAAMI is.

So, Little Billy, YOU and M&M go run and play. You both want to post what you READ. I only post WHAT I DO. Silly me. But that's the difference between us. I DO, you read. BIG DIFFERENCE in the overall results, as you will discover once you actually attempt to do what some of your cherished book writers tell you.

When you grow up, perhaps you will take a little time and LEARN ABOUT MILITARY WEAPONS. Especially RUSSIAN MILITARY WEAPONS. Perhaps you will learn about words like 'crush' (for barrel mounting). Perhaps you will learn about how headspacing a firearm works - big difference in civi firearms acceptable specs and MILITARY specs (military headspace gauges include an extra gauge called 'field' - but you don't even know that). Perhaps you will LEARN about ammuntion and HOW it actually works in a given firearm. You and M&M can apparently only read about this. Neither of you certainly know anything about this type of information first hand. All you've got is to live vicariously through OTHER PEOPLE DOING THINGS. Try doing them for yourself. THEN COME BACK HERE and we might actually have something to discuss.

THE GUY WHO WROTE THE BOOK "CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD" IS THE AUTHORITY ON ALL THE CARTRIDGES IN THE GUN CULTURE. HE'S ONLY WRITTEN TEN OF THEM, EACH ONE GIVING UPDATES ON NEW CARTRIDGES OUT THERE. HE'S WRITTEN THIS BOOK SINCE 1965.

Can you NOT READ that the 7.62x39 ranges from .308 - .311?

Probably not. Perhaps more time in the fourth grade will help. Because you are definitely not ready to proceed to the fifth grade YET. Little Billy, run along now. You need to come in and take your nappy shortly.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Tula has been caught loading .308 caliber projectiles in the 122gr fmj sold under the Wolf name here in the US. I'm not sure what the point here is though.

My biggest objection, though objection is too strong a word, to it is just the lack of steel core or AP for .308 which is legal with 7.62x54r. Yes, reloading can address that, just don't get caught! The .308 does have better performance against most barriers than either 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 but 5.56 won't make it through many common things x39 can, like brick or concrete block walls or thick wood. The fullhouse .30cals offer better penetration on such materials but x39 does drill through the great majority of cover found in the real world so then it does come down to the tactical analysis of the particular circumstances. It's always a matter of having the right tool for the job.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Show me where I said undersized .308 bullets won't fire from a .311 bore. The point is when you do that, you lose velocity, just like money matters said.

Take this example from THR:

7.62x39 Bullets .308 vs .311 Real testing with pics

It's been pretty hotly contested as to how much diffrence there is between loading 7.62x39 using .308 bullets vs .310-.311 so here it is. I tested this today and here are the results.

The rifle is a CZ527 carbine topped with a 3x9x40 redfield accutrac scope. The bore measures .300 land to land and .3105 in the grooves

The ammo was loaded with 150 gr Sierre soft points 10 rds of .308 and 10 rds of the same bullet sized .311. Cases were Remington CCI 400 , The powder was 23.5grs of Re-7 with a COL of 2.310

It was about 65 degrees today with a light varible breeze of 15 mph

Shot string 1
.308 bullets

1851
1826
1852
1827
1846
***************
Shot string 2
.311 bullets

1935
1904
1937
1912
1925
****************

Shot string 3
.311 bullets

1953
1888 !?
1915
1932
1925
***************

shot string 4
.308 bullets

1852
1855
1869
1844
1873

7.62x39 Bullets .308 vs .311 Real testing with pics

I believe this is the rifle this fellow used for his test:

http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=15

Note that he states the bore is .3105; exactly what you'd expect for a .311 bullet. If losing 50-100 fps is your idea of acceptable more power to you.

Here's the cartridge drawing:

http://www.stevespages.com/jpg/cd762x39.jpg

Make all the excuses you want for bullets that have diameters all over the place. You are still full of shit.

And well done posting in such a low road fashion. Don't you think its time to grow up? I am done with you in this thread.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Waa Waa Waa Waa Waa Waa Waa Waa Ya'll want some cheese with your WHINE. Damn, you sound like a bunch of school kids fighting on the playground. ENOUGH ALREADY!!! AK47 all you'll ever need. Just bought another one at the Knoxville gun show yesterday, $300, that makes 6 I own.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

It's harder and more expensive to get steel core in 7.62x39 than x51.

1. I have my pile of .308 (both 7.62x51 147gr & M2 168gr) AP bullets. Doesn't everyone?

2. One can still buy milsurp (pulled) 7.62 AP bullets.

3. It is not illegal to own or reload .308 AP. (Reloading is not manufacturing.) It is only illegal to manufacture or import .308 AP bullets for civilian sales/use.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sticks and stones 'lil billy', sticks and stones.

Once again you are quoting WHAT YOU READ. Not what YOU DO.

BIG DIFFERENCE.

You and lil m&m go run along and play with the rest of the children. We will call you and tell you when it's time for your nappy.

You certainly get cranky without it, yes?

WAH, WAH, WAH lil billy. That's about all you are worth... Now go be a good lil boy and go outside and play with all your other fourth grade friends...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Who the hell purchases a rifle/carbine that takes a .310 diameter bullet?

A "survivalist" is not planning to Rambo. He's not even planning to rumble. The survivalist wants to be far apart from the nut-jobs who think they'd better have 10K rds per AK or they might not "survive".

These dumb-asses have already cooked their own gooses. Survivalism is much more than lots of guns.


It really is a laugh to see a guy who cannot grasp what accuracy in rifles is all about, try to pass himself off as a "gunsmith" and an "expert". It is just tedious to have to endure the stupidity espoused.

There is just such a body of stupidity put in print here by Wallew that it is like a cornucopia to select from.

Basically I see those arguing FOR the 7.62x39 as misunderstanding what a "survivalist" actually is. As I said pages back, the AK/SKS and 7.62x39 are great anti-personnel weapons at close range. The guy with a few thousand acres, all game fenced, with a security team in his employ might benefit from deploying AKs. Maybe if you are wealthy enough to have a versatile selection of firearms, reloading gear and components; maybe you find a reason to want AKs and lots of ammo? Cool! But why?

There is just no rationale to select the 7.62x39 in place of a full-power cartridge and no reason to select it once you own a .308 or .30-06.

A Garand, M1a, or AR-10 is 3x the rifle that any AK is. If you only have one rifle, any of these will serve any application you could be faced with. The 7.62x39 in any form is simply not up to the job. It is still a free country, so choose your own flavor; but I say if you choose 7.62x39 you're picking poison.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

This is all seeming a little silly, now.

MM, you stated and thus agree that "As I said pages back, the AK/SKS and 7.62x39 are great anti-personnel weapons at close range"... So doesn't it stand to reason that there could come a time when you would need to deal with a threat or threats at close range, and an AK or SKS could very well come in handy?

Then, at the same time, for those times where you need that 300, 400, 500+ yard shot, you've got the .308 or .30-06 bolt action. Those of us who don't live in Alaska don't see these great distances often, if ever, but who knows what the future holds... may as well be prepared and own one of each if someone feels like it, right?

I just don't see how you can say, "As I said pages back, the AK/SKS and 7.62x39 are great anti-personnel weapons at close range" but then go on to say, immediately thereafter, "There is just no rationale to select the 7.62x39 in place of a full-power cartridge and no reason to select it once you own a .308 or .30-06." Seems a bit contradictory. Couldn't one select the 7.62x39 for those moments when one needs "great anti-personnel weapons at close range", even "once you own a .308 or .30-06"?? Does owning a .308 or .30-06 preclude and cancel out the fact that "the AK/SKS and 7.62x39 are great anti-personnel weapons at close range"??

Like I said, this seems silly, doesn't it?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yes indeed, but 7.62x39 competes against 5.56x45, not .308. x39 outperforms M855 on most commonly encountered barriers. Actually you wouldn't want the steel core M43 that was imported into the US. It wasn't really made for penetration, the mild steel core was just to displace strategically important lead. M43 was the pits when it came to wounding, not very impressive at all. Since those dark days x39 bullet design has come a long ways. The Chinese did develop some good steel core for it but it's not very common here. You can use cut down old .303AP like tungsten penetrator stuff, good luck finding any though.

It is easier to get your hands on steel core and AP for 7.62x54r than for .308 and that's what I was talking about.

I'll have to look into the particulars of reloading not counting as manufacturing but it doesn't sound like a safe bet Vs ATF to me.

Anyway the .308 is a good round regardless.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Don't even waste your breath, he's just trolling. Really, how can you base your defense on "nobody can ever hurt me!" Ask a mugger to step back 500 yards in mid-attack so you can be beyond his striking range? :confused_ma: You can take steps to reduce your risk, there's no such thing as being invulnerable. Hence my first post, and what probably should have been my only response in this thread to MM's stupid trolling.

I'm just making use of my ignore feature till such time as he gets himself banned or finds some other forum to troll.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yawn, think I will stop reading this thread as even the insults are getting mundane. But, thought I would inject one last point for you smart fellows to mull over. Do you happen to know what foreign troops will be occuppying your "zone" in the coming takedown and takeover of the USA? We have been divided up into ten regions with different country's troops is different regions. What nations are now training at your local bases? What caliber weapons will they be armed with? The new Chinese 6.5? Ruskee?? The military blackmarket will be the sole sure source of ammo resupply sometime in our future if the PTB succeeds with their plans.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sorry to disappoint with mundane and minimal sarcasm, but we do try to be civil here. Notice that I haven't called anyone a "liar" or a "troll"; nor have I said "this will get someone killed".

Arguing is a reasoning process; unless you have decided your position cannot be changed.

No one has yet shown me the potential of the 7.62x39. (It would make a helluva varmint pistol in some big frame autoloader, but who needs one of those?)


What really is this bitchy lil' Rev127 always whining about trolls for? Is this some Caddyshack reference to "last time I saw a face like that it had a hook in it"?


The point of the matter is, if you own a .308 or 06, why would you buy a whole other weapon system that cannot interchange bullets or even be handloaded to any purpose?

Nobody here has any open pastures, long roadways or other (did I mention "open") areas that a powerful round might serve to harvest game at a distance? Not like there is great reason to be firing at targets 1/2 mile away as a matter of regularity; but why not have the option if you ever need it?

Funny thing about the .308 is you can actually make brass from any .30-06 case you come across. Any American cases will be Boxer primed, any .308 cal bullet will function 100%.

The survivalist has vacated areas that are likely to be "tinderboxes or powderkegs", and lives at some distance or with some barrier between his family and the hordes. Of course, there is always that Red Dawn scenario...

It is really amusing to see how many pursue fantasy rather than reality in their planning.

I just hope all the Rambos make it through okay. Not like you'll be playing paintball, is it? You'll only find out there is a difference once you get "tagged". Then you're really 100% "it".

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Dear Troll,

I just paid my builder for a Yugo M70 underfolder. I'll add it to the other AK's already in the safe. If you don't understand the potential of this weapon and it's caliber you are stupid, but you've already proved yourself as such over the course of this thread.:banghead:

Thanks for all of the "advice",:banghead:
AG

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

It seems that you already answered this, yourself, several posts back:



It seems this, also, has already been answered:


You're a puzzling character, money matters. :bear_tongue: Capricious; whimsical, even. :bear_kiss:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

There is no rationale in the "I've bought a dozen of these AK's, therefore they are for survivalists" argument. This is not like "art is something you like".


If you guys think you are geared for "survival" by owning these inaccurate carbines. you have my condolences. A "survival" firearm is not merely something that throws a lot of lead, helter-skelter for a block more/less.

A survival firearm, or a rifle chosen by a survivalist will serve many functions, not merely one. It will serve all tasks with sufficient power and be capable of reloading/handloading to even better serve a variety of needs.

What is interesting about this thread is the 7.62x39 crowd really feels threatened if you suggest their poodle-shooters aren't worthy of selection. There is no argument with the poor accuracy, the low-end power, the poor potential of the cartridge. Yet, I'm a troll for stating the obvious.

What is also obvious is this: Anyone planning to play Rambo in realtime may as well just order their tombstone now and prepay for their funeral.

A survivalist has taken steps to remove his family from any environment that might be subject to (1) proximity to nuclear blast, (2) large population centers and metro areas, (3) proximity to major highways. Rogue River Oregon was an early survivalist mecca. Not many people, many hours from major cities, good climate and farming, no fallout potential, no nuke targets; the kind of place you would like to be when the balloon goes up.

It takes effort and desire to be anywhere other than where you were once it dawned on you that survivalism was something you needed to embrace.

But maybe you didn't embrace it? Maybe you figure being able to "do unto others before they do unto you" is the bottomline of survivalism?

Sorry, but you will find that it is not.

The Backpack bug-out types have also missed the concept. Especially if, like Ol' Rev, they pack 40lbs of gun, ammo and vest; before taking anything else on their imagined walkabout. The main concept of survivalism is preparedness with the aim of self-sufficiency. You can't prepare for the rest of your life with only the contents of a backpack to work from. That is simply the reality of life.

Take a dose of reality and consider just what you get from your AK/SKS in 7.62x39. Not much more than a 40 shot rifle that won't group for shit at 100yds firing a light bullet a little better than at pistol velocities. About the only thing you're prepared for toting one of those things is killing people. Very doubtful there is much of a future in that.

Got an AK vest and plenty of mags? See yourself slaying the hordes, do you? Funny thing about crowds, they don't just sit around and let you gun them down like extras in some Quentin Tarantino movie.

The survivalist will be far from the crowds, or he/she has failed their planning. If you are out of proximity to the hordes/crowds, as any real survivalist will be, you have no need of a firearm for primary purpose of dispatching lots of people at close range.

There are probably other reasons the 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge, but those listed above are sufficient to prove the case.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Survivalist is the one that can use tools available to survive.

An AK and 500 rounds of ammo is less than half an ounce on gold.

It is a cheap tool.

==================

On another thought

Look at this

the womenz in this post apocalyptic scenario look palatable enough

the dudes MUST go. they just look so Evil

so this is where the AK with all it's pluses and minuses will come to the top

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PzmqgLmCzNQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PzmqgLmCzNQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Prefer my post-apocalyptic babes to actually be good looking and capable of holding a tune:-


Check out the shooting accuracy at 00:50 seconds. =)

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

My Survival weapon ~ 'nuff said.

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...ian_RPK_sm.jpg

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Perhaps someone can answer me this. If getting brass for 7.62x39 is so tough ... why has noone stepped up and started stamping blanks for sale? Seriously. If there's such a terrible shortage, you'd cover startup costs in short order. And you're only stamping brass, not steel. Equipment for that wouldn't run anywhere near as costly.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I think cartridge brass is actually drawn/extruded or lathe turned. Then annealed. Not stamped into shape.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Any of you 7.62x39 owners handloading your ammunition?
Not likely. What is the point? Very little reason to go with squib loads, very little room to even gain another 100FPS. The cartridge is a 100yd wonder. The 6mmPPC and .22PPC are similar, but damn do they represent about perfection in a benchrest 100yd rifle.

Too bad the bullet is .310 diameter. Can't use .308 or .311 (.303 Enfield). Lotsa too bad's with the AK. Mainly too bad there's such little powder capacity. You can bet the round is maxed out to the magazine dimension too. No room for a heavier bullet, can't increase the full diameter length of the bullet w/o raising pressures. Physics is one of those brick walls you hit when you play in the sandbox of reality.

Looking at the pix posted of the AK w/scope, what is the tactical rail for on either side of your scope? More gizmos? How much elevation does that scope do from 100yds? If it is a 1" tube, probably not but 20" more. 20" will maybe get you out to 350yds from a 100yd zero. Nice looking gun. When are ya gonna get a real rifle?

Funny to see the post with all the Super Expensive loads for the 7.62x39; pay $25/20 get another 100fps and a chance to ruin your gun.


This argument is kind of like arguing about vehicle mileage. The hybrid guy says, "I get 60mpg at 60mph", the one ton 4x4 turbo diesel guy says, "I get 24mpg at 60mph while carrying 4 passengers and 1000lbs, plus I have a great potential for survival in a head-on collision".

The hybrid guy is DOA in the collision, the 3500 driver walks away.
MM says: Mileage don't matter if what you face is a collision.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You'll have to pardon my ignorance on the subject. But if that's the case (sorry) a used CNC lathe can be had dirt cheap (even dirtier and cheaper if you've access to 3-phase) and carbide tooling would last pretty much forever working brass.

I'm surprised at that, tho. I'd have thought a stamped case would be more than adequate, and aside of initial tooling cost, would be much cheaper to operate than milling away 90% of brass rod stock.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yeah, and the Hybrid in rush-hour traffic bumper-to-bumper still gets the same mileage as my 6-spd Corvette, so what ? :rolleyes_m:

MM - I'm sure you have made some good points somewhere in this thread, but it seems by your tone that you harbor resentment to a formidable weapon such as the AK. Keep in mind that not all AK's are the same. You CANNOT discount a whole genre of guns just by 1-caliber. That's like me saying 44-mags are too expensive, too much kick, and not practical for home defense. Yet, I'm not even comparing barrels or frames or manufacturers or grips or anything else that might improve the performance and deliver of that load.

It's very, very narrow-minded of you to just say across the board that any gun shooting a 7.62x39mm round is not suitable for survival.

Yep, and for Survival the only gun to have is one that shoots every time. :bear_tongue:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Resentment?

If you expect me to be concerned with garnering approval as a motivation; you have miscalculated, sir.

There has actually been quite a bit of support and outside testimony bearing out the premise for this thread.

Anyone who is willing to buy the idea that the AK is foolproof hasn't read the threads on AK problems over some of the popular gun forums. Evidently, just because the gun has a reputation does not mean it lives up to the reputation in real life.

Funny thing is, how many rounds of blaster ammo have you 7.62x39 guys zipped on through your rifles? How many full mags of rip ass plinking have you just fired off for the exhilaration of it? C'mon, fess up; you didn't even think about barrel life didja? Hell, your super-sturmgewehr is supposed to last 300,000 rds and you've only fired off 10 or 20K worth, right?


What is evident on this thread is how many are confused?
Very few seem to understand what a "survivalist" is.
We have NOT been discussing how well suited the AK is for Ramboing in the city or heavy forests, how well it is suited for patrol operations seeking "enemy combatants".

Few seem to grasp this.

Few seem to understand that an accurate full-power rifle is, as Jeff Cooper put it, "The Queen of Weapons". Power, accuracy, flexibility all these attributes are sacrificed by those who choose the 7.62x39.

Do I mind? Hell no! I am relieved, very much so.
When the ammo runs out, those guns will be useless other than for their built in bayonets.

An AK seems to be the weapon of choice for those embracing their deepest fears, rather than as a tool for response to a wide variety of situations. Seems most are expecting something akin to the Roark's Drift engagement. Too bad they fail to understand that it was the .577 caliber and 480 grain bullet that delivered the blow to the Zulus. A slow bullet that weighs a ton does the trick. A 120gr bullet at 2300fps is not much of a round. But, hey you got 40 of em, don'tcha?


What is the premise of a debate? (The opposition here seems not to know.)
If you look at the thread title, the subject here is the lack of suitability of the 7.62x39 cartridge, as denoted for survivalist use.

Nobody is talking about the particular rifle, as if the "rifle" makes the cartridge suitable. It doesn't.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

So bud, you still plan on marching down to your local W-mart to renew your supply of "holy" 308 when your stash runs out under the coming "UN" occupation? Do you still expect factory produced rounds, brass, powder, primers, bullets to be available a couple years into a real probabal "red dawn" situation that's coming, buddy? These are all modern factory produced componates, and not something you can easily "home roll". Took 75,000 rounds for the US army to kill a "kong" 40 years ago, is takeing them close to 200,000 to kill a raghead in this go around. Resistance doesn't need to expend near as many, but it does take a hell of a toll on your ammo stash. You got plenty? Where do you plan to get more? Pray to the "Cargo Gods" for re-supply? Think that the occuppation troops are going to keep your favorite 308 round on the front shelves of all the stores? Maybe you will get real real real lucky and that is what the occuppying troops will be shooting at you in your region and you can capture steal or buy on the blackmarket some of their supply. Hope you are real real real lucky with your choice of "survival rifle" and round, and they aren't useing chinese 6.5, or mexican 6.5, or russian 47 or 74 ammo. TPTB are already putting the big squeeze on the ammo supply; you too blind to see it? Why care too much about gun control, when they have AMMO CONTROL.

I have known for more than a dozen years that we here in Michigan are to be faceing the "BEAR" and have acted logically in the choice of a stash away "survival" rifle and round.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hoot,

Your last remarks, they do your handle full justice. Gave me a real chuckle!

You Ak-guys all seem to project a whole lot. Gonna be fighting the Ruskies in Michigan, eh? Too bad you didn't fight em when you had the chance, you might have a state left.

Looks to me like Federal American Eagle in .308 is cheaper than 7.,62x39 FAE.

Doesn't take much to stash a carton or two of primers. An lb of imr 4064 or Varget will keep for 20 years or more. You can still buy bulk pack bullets, or maybe Nosler blems pretty cheap. Get a 5lb can of powder and you can load almost 1000 rds.

Me? I like the .223. I can load 1500 rds of match ammunition for under $500. A 75 grain (or 80gr/90gr) match bullet in a 1:7 twist service rifle is an awesome accurate and fairly light rifle. Many people shoot these inside a 6" circle at 600yds. An 80-90 gr bullet at 600yds is gonna hurt! That weight compares to a hunting bullet in a .243Win. Albeit at less velocity.

Flexibility, accuracy; the survivalist can use these. The AK-guys will wish they had them. The .308 with 168 or 175gr match bullets will also be right there at 600 yds. Tens of thousands do it every weekend in local Service Rifle matches. They do it with open sights. Pretty amazing.

The amazing thing is the AK-guys here simply deny the vital importance to meet whatever situation that confronts you with tools that can respond to the challenge. Maybe the challenge is getting that deer nibbling at the oats through the barbed wire, 250 yds across the pasture at dusk? Maybe that deer is 400 yds away? Oh well...

Too many oh wells string together into hard times.
But you can sure take care of all them marauders, can't ya?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hey money matters:

There are 162 posts now between your first and last in this thread. Can you maybe pause and write a Summary post to distill what has been learned so far for the newbies?

:wavey:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

i think he is talking survival not wtshtf.
2 diff subjects.
ak is for when the mob rushes your porch in suburbia.
308 is for surviving off the land.
that close mm?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Ok,I've got bolt guns in .308,.303,30-06,8mm,7.62x54,7.5 Swiss,6.5 Swede and a few others as well as my AKs & SKS rifles in 7.62x39...plenty of ammo for each.Hope I can survive...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

ME, ME, pick me! I KNOW THIS ANSWER.

The SHORT SIMPLE VERSION IS:

M&M IS RIGHT, EVERYONE ELSE HERE IS WRONG.

We should all now gather round M&M and let him regale us ALL with his wit and wisdom when it comes to firearms. After all, he's read about it on the web or seen in on TV so it MUST BE TRUE.

Right M&M?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

LOL, very true...

He has no friggin clue. It takes the right "tools" to do specific "jobs". 7.62x39 in an AK or SKS covers a broad range of these "jobs".

Would MM take his $4000 R93 and make it his conceal carry weapon? I hope not. Would he take a Keltec .380 and shoot 300+ yards? I doubt it.


He's in this to piss off as many people as possible and share his "wisdom", which so far has been as usefull to me as someone telling me the sky is blue.

I have .223's, .308's, a few 30-06's, 7.62x54's, they have their place. 7.62x39 rifles are good for the following ranges IMHO - Up close and personnal to 100 yards. They will take care of personnel to light vehicles and even Deer, then fold up the stock, load the hollow points, and you have a close range tactical weapon. Add the price factor to this and it is an extremely attractive fire system.


THERE IS NO ONE MAGICAL CALIBER MM THAT YOU CAN USE FOR EVERY SITUATION. Each weapon/caliber was designed for specific purposes.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Very sensible statement AG,could not have said it better myself.:applause_

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Is that allowed? I didn't think we were allowed to make sense here. I'm sure that's against the rules.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

In summary, the 7.62x39 is NOT a survivalist's cartridge because:

7.62x39 has minimal power (120gr bullet @2350fps) to adequately take even small whitetail deer,
Poor trajectory due to low velocity and poor ballistic coefficient bullet design,
Very limited in terms of available handloading components,
Very minimal handloading flexibilities because cartridge case is small and bullet diameter is unique (.310).

Pretty difficult to rationalize owning the cartridge if you need to integrate your defense needs with other weapons for hunting, varminting, or anti-sniper duties.

Would you own .223 and .308 hunting rifles and then choose a rifle that is not as capable of either?

Many people here believe their AK/SKS firing the 7.62x39 is a moderate pressure ctg. Not so. Rev127 said, "The AK has longer barrel life because of its low pressure" and then cited the pressure of the .308 to be 62000 CUP. Speer states that SAAMI pressure for the 39 is 50Kcup and 52kcup for the .308. Hmm??

Much has been made about long-lived performance and unfailing reliability. BS. Check out any of the gun forums, AKs have issues like every other kind of machine. And sorry, but that barrel will be on its last legs way before 10k rounds, or have you REALLY never unloaded a full mag just for fun? 40rds down the tube at once is going to do damage no matter what you believe.

Let's talk about 4moa at 100yds. Think that translates to 20moa at 500yds? Not very likely. Not even likely that you get 12" at 300 yds. Maybe you get 24" at 300 yds. Not much reason to even sight the damn thing is there?

Lots of versatility with the 5.56, .308 or .30-06; about none with the 7.62x39.

Survivalist is not gearing up to slaughter the hordes of Zombie Mutants he expects will be coming after him on The Day. Survivalist moved already, to where his neighbors are a strength and resource. To a place where maybe there will be some game to harvest, or maybe your most important shooting will be at varmints raiding your crops or taking your livestock. Try getting a wolf or coyote to lure into AK range. Maybe if you are an accomplished varminter; most are not.

The AK might be adapted by the survivalist as a special purpose weapon, but why? Why choose a poodle-shooter, a people-popper when you can buy weapons chambered for more versatile cartridges? Why spend a few thousand on the poodle shooter when you can add more components and have fewer logistical problems by having weapons that interchange ammunition.

The .308Win is a most versatile cartridge when all is considered. It will serve varmint hunter, deer hunter, elk hunter, and defense purposes. Has been developed into the world's standard for accuracy in .30cal chamberings. Is available in Lever, pump, semi-auto, bolt and single shot rifle and pistols. There is simply no comparison to the 7.62x39 in power, accuracy or handloading capabilities.

With a velocity range of 3400fps w/110gr bullet to 2700fps w/180gr bullet, and over 4000fps w/sabotted rounds, the .308 is a great do-all ctg for the survivalist.

If you have but one rifle, the .308 would be a great choice.

If you are an expert handloader and competitive shooter, the 5.56/.223 Rem could be a very valid choice. With a 1:6.5 twist barrel the 5.56mm will handle up to 90 grain bullets, albeit loaded singly. 75gr match bullets offer .5moa accuracy to 300yds and could serve out to 450 maybe further. Yet, it is not the first choice for a one-gun survivalist of general abilities.

There are many other details in the thread for those interested.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM calls BS on you, Big Al.

The .308Win is about as multi-tasking a cartridge as can be selected.

As a standard NATO round, it has that going for it which trumps all other ctgs. If it weren't so highly developed, you might have a point. Yet, the survivalist is not going to be going bear hunting; not for sport.

If you only have one gun, (which is how this whole 7.62x39 discussion began), a .308 is a really good choice for maximum versatility.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

No, No.

This is how you started it. remember?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I just wanted to post something in a thread with 173 post.

Sorry

Electric-Amish:D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Good luck lugging around that FAL/HK91/M1A in any close range combat situation. 10 pounds of rifle and 30+ more of ammo and mags.

The AK is perfect from 0-100 yrds. According to West Point experts, this is where the majority of the action takes place. From a tree stand in a forest it will also serve you well.

If SHTF today and I could only take one rifle, I'd be out the door with the AK. Of course I'm in an Urban area. You, on the other hand, are probably a 10 day hike from any other living soul because you are irritating. Thus the need for 500+ yrd squirel head shots.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Oh man, as long as the mud's being flung, that was brilliant. You've got to admit, money matters, that was damn funny. :D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Once again M&M shows his IGNORANCE.

The .308 Win is NOT the standard NATO round. That is the 7.62x51, NOT the .308 Win, which is the CIVILIAN EQUIVALENT OF the 7.62x51...

Thank you, thank you, thank you M&M for showing EVERYONE HERE EXACTLY HOW STUPID YOU ACTUALLY ARE.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Exactly, but don't get me wrong, they are all excellent weapons. If I had to hole up some place, I'd like one around.


I think the title of this thread should have been "What is the most universal high powered round" or "7.62x39 is not a practical long range round" or I'd even buy ".308 is a better round than 7.62x39 ballistically speaking". Survival is interpreted differently by everyone here.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Good ol' Ballew,

Comes lumbering through and leaves a pile of scat behind my garage.
Why bother lurking and reading here Wally? Gonna still offer that $2000 Remington custom with stainless barrel and McMillan A-5 stocK? Stupid is something you know something about, bro.

"When you need to move quick" Suki-Tawdry said. Get a U-haul for that dude. If you gotta "move quick", you are playing soldier; not what I'm discussing here, or isn't it obvious after I've said it about 100 different ways.

Stupid. Misunderstandings. Lack of attention to detail. You AK guys want to sling lead as you Boogaloo Down Broadway. Why not? It is all the One Trick Pony you've thrown your saddle over can do.

Like those AKs or SKSs are light with 40rd mags and a tactical vest, or maybe you finally got the drum magazines you salivated over?

The dweeb/feeb bitches at me for not writing 7.62NATO, 7.62x51mm along with .308Win. Your best shot was a spit ball from the back row, pal. Not even a pea shooter.

I dunno. Youse guys... What? Dijas play GI Joes way too often in your teen years? Must be. One of yas was all excited about getting a buncha canteens. Sheesh!


I am not much on FAL or Sigs. But, an AR-10 or M1a, a Garrand, or an AR-15 offers flexibility and all the things, like accuracy that your Rambo Wet Dream doesn't. Things like a real scope mount system and custom barrels from accuracy gunsmiths that Wallew has never heard of like Krieger, Rock, Obermeyer, Pac-Nor, Shilen, Schneider, Hart, Bartlein. Some factory AR-10s came with Lothar-Walther barrels. GA Precision builds notable customs on the DPMS, Armalite and SA M1a platforms.

I dunno, does Les Baer build AKs? I know they build AR-15s. Guys shoot AR-10s in HighPower matches 600yds routinely, up to 1000. Look at the Afghanis against the Russians. Longrange junk that they lived with and knew how to shoot ate the Russians lunch. Gonna shoot AK squibs at a guy in the rocks 500yds away? Were the snipers in Kosovo shooting AKs?

GI Joe. That shit will get you kia.

Any rifle is better than a sharp stick, unless it is muzzle up in a pit trap. Now the lightbulb goes on! That is why you guys prefer the AK, so you can run a mantrap when you have fired your last mag and ain't hit nothin!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM is making lots of friends.

Unbunch your panties and listen for once.

Money does matter and for that reason I have AK's, amongst other specialized weapons. Apparently money is of no object to you so you throw it away buying expensive barrels from know it alls like yourself cause they made em out of stainless and put fancy looking fillets and undercuts down the side of them. 1/8" tighter group at 300 yrds is worth what money matters?


Mil-spec buddy, that's where the good stuff is, not Joe Blow the barrel maker subcontacting out the gun drilling and broaching then slapping his name on it. I'd like to see a factory Barret, PSG1, Tiger or even a 700 police model vs one of your home built POS's, using your Smithy lathe/mill combo and big factory bought, rebadged barrels.

Take your Mickey Mouse show down to where someone gives a chit.:s9:

Bottom line is this for the millionth time: Most surviving is going to be done at a range of 100 yrds or less. Get over yourself.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

For a bolt action what do you guys think of an old 303? Someone I know purchased one and has recommended it.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

The Enfields in .303 are fine rifles. The bolt action on them is fast and slick, and you can shoot them as fast as you could a semiauto (with practice, of course).

MM would tell your friend to get one of the Ishapores, because even though they look like crap, they shoot 7.62X51 :wink: No matter how they look, they're fine shooters.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I took down 4 whitetails at about 200 to 350 yards. Only once deer ran and only ran 40 yards from where I shot it. Each time bullet went right through the deer making HOREBLE wounds. On the deer that ran bullet went right through the hart splitting it in two ( have some pics if you don�t believe me ).
My point is 7.62x39 is plenty powerful to kill deer with.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yes indeed and there is an extremely important difference between the two. 7.62x51 has a much lower max allowable pressure than .308 Winchester. In fact fullhouse .308's can blow up many military 7.62x51 rifles. For instance the Ishapore IIA Lee-Enfields and the Springfield Armory M1A rifles. Be aware of this when you buy .308 ammo for your military rifle. Safe .308 is marked with the NATO crosshairs to show it is NATO spec and not the hotter civilian stuff which can run 20% greater pressure and get really close to the 7.62x51 proofing pressure.

Here is a link explaining the situation in a fair degree of detail.

http://www.thegunzone.com/30cal.html

Know what your rifle is chambered for and know what kind of ammo you're shooting.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yes, but you couldn't have shot that deer between the eyes at 600 yards, which seems to be the point of this thread--not that any responsible hunter is going to make a shot like that.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Well said AG :applause_

MM just likes reading his own posts I presume.......he hasn't learned how to 'listen' :banghead: or try to comprehend other viewpoints.

AK - bad........MM - right...........ugh (caveman intellect)

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You guys are all wrong... HP Uranium-filled Cannonball fired from a SBC Cannon, that's a survivalist's round....

http://au.gamespot.com/gamespot/guid...sam/p3_01.html

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM said....

I told him that 7.62x39 plenty powerful to kill deer with.
Any way, this season I killed whitetail with Ruger gp100 in .357 from about 40 yards. Used buffalo bore 125gr ammo. Bullet went through shoulder plates wasting hole bunch of meat. I won't be hunting with those rounds any more, they are to powerful.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Buffalo Bore ammo? To take a whitetail? Before Buffalo Bore there was Super Vel. Just because you can kill a deer with a .38cal pistol at 40yds, does that make a pistol equal to a rifle?

What is most interesting on this thread is how many are outraged at my continued discussion of The Facts. No one has negated any of The Facts yet. You may as well have chosen the Ruger 10/22 over the AK, at least that rifle would be more accurate, easier to shoot, lighter weight, and cheap to purchase, inexpensive ammo.

May as well have a 10/22. Likely you already do. Is it a survivalist's cartridge? No, it is a .22LR. Better than a sharp stick, but not terribly versatile except in the low-power range of things.

Compare the .22LR to the 7.62x39 though, for daily use. Unless all you are concerned with is killing human beings, the .22LR is more useful. Since neither the .22LR or 7.62x39 are effective game cartridges, the .22LR is likely the more useful and versatile.

Useful and versatile.
.22LR has ammo ranging from CB-caps to rat shot, to Stingers, to std velocity 40gr and the heavier Aguilla rounds. This is a range of from about 20gr to 60gr. Not so many choices in 7.62x39 are there. Can even shoot Match Ammo in your 10/22, maybe you have a spare barrel or two to do different tasks with?

The AK is a people-popper.
You guys choosing it are in fear for your lives.
Likely you should be. If you live amongst the horde you have failed at survivalism.

Got that .308Win? Know how to handload? Know how to use a decent scope at a variety of ranges? Know your trajectories for different loads? Then you have a real Survivalist's tool and the ability to adapt to changing situations.


Got a 5.56mm AR-15? Maybe you own a Ciener conversion unit? A .458Socom upper? A 6.5 Grendel Upper? One rifle platform that can cover all the bases.

AR-10? .308Win, .260 Rem, .338 Federal, .358Win, .22-250, .243

Got an AR-10(T) so maybe you buy a 16" barreled m4 style upper for carbine use?

Versatility, Power, Accuracy, Ability to use the complete spectrum of sighting equipment to deliver The Well Aimed Shot. Ammunition supply and reloading...

These are critical concerns, even if you choose to ignore them.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I have read the military studies: 80+% of the time on humans animals or objects in the field in a wide variety of situations at normal combat ranges it DIDN'T MATTER to whatever was hit if it was hit with a 7.62x51 or a 7.62x39 round, the result was the same. And the bean-counters were very happy with the other 20%, as from a cost benifit ratio/time study point of view a wounded enemy takes much more out of opposeing force in support costs than a dead enemy does. Suggested reading is the US Army's "Ordenance" magazine, or Dunnigan's "How to Make War".

Have already stated on this thread that I shoot close to 60 year old russian production SKS's that will shoot consistant sub 2 moa groups. Have also read reports that the recent factory civilian AK models coming out of Russia will best that level of accurracy. Durability and dependability are never an issue with either of these weapons; conversely I was recently reading a blog on THR.com following three dozen individuals equiped with their own mix of mostly newer weapons through a intense "contractors" training course in the hills of Tennessee this spring. Things went well for all until it rained hard on the third day and they got a little mud on the course in a rural junkyard. Well guess what? those 13 little dinky springs in that POS AR design raised their ugly little heads again and there were TWO KABOOMS of AR platform weapons while the AK arms with their three heavy springs soldiered through. nuffsaid

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You AK guys, just pretend for a minute that you lived somewhere that was a pretty good drive away from any city or large town, and that to find your place you had to get off a two lane country road and maybe get onto some kind of dirt road or go through a couple of gates.

Figure that you own 30-40 acres and your house is situated to maximize your homestead potential. You've got some pasture and a few head of cattle or sheep, a good gardening spot and a few acres that grow canning foods for your family's use and maybe some to trade. Maybe you have a few acres in hay and a neighbor bales you for shares?

You've got a wood lot for firewood and hunting, but your house is not "in the woods" because of fire danger, so you've got open area around you.

Imagine that to find you, the hordes really have to know where to go and really have to persist getting by a lot of other farms first.


This is the kind of location that a survivalist might prefer for their retreat/homestead. No need to be close to town. Didn't move there to hang out at the Hastings and rent videos, or to haunt WallyWorld or Target. Likely Wally's and Target are 40-50mi from you at least.

So... You and your family are off the beaten path. Not too likely you need those AKs with 10,000rds of ball per rifle.

If you are close to "the city", right off a major highway in close proximity; your situation is possibly pretty dire.

The survivalist has minimal "horde" exposure.
He/she chose their location to minimize that potential.

Just wondering, if you are prepped for the hordes, are you also living in a bulletproof home, driving an armored vehicle? Preparing for the hordes is damned expensive. A few popguns and some cheap ammo does not "prepared" make. A tactical vest w/kevlar plates isn't going to let you doom in godmode, not like so many expect. Much better to look at avoidance of the hordes, rather than meeting the challenge.

The survivalist has prepped for the hordes, by not being where they will be.
Maybe that is a hard concept to understand?
Neighbors helping neighbors will come back in style among survivalists.
People might even learn how to live together as neighbors once again?

I say, they will know you by your tools. A survivalist doesn't pack a stilleto in place of a Bowie. A 7.62x39 compares about the same way to a .308Win. Funny, if the only tool you have is a hammer, maybe everyone begins to look like a nail?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Irrelevant. He would have gotten the drop on them and made 10 headshots at 1000 yards before they could even see him. Don't you understand warfare, mtnman? :confused_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

That's why I said "middle of the night" ain't no long range shootin' at night.:sarc:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Does anyone still take this guy seriously? :haha: :rofl: Give it a rest MM. Thanks for the entertainment, it was fun while it lasted, but I believe you're done here so you can cut your losses (time, mostly) :bear_w00t:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

In football, how often does the "hail mary" pass play actually come through and win the game with 4th down and 4 seconds to go?

That's right, almost never.

Those are the same odds you will have working against you when you find you have bet your life and the lives of your family members on a pipsqueak weapon that can't be relied upon to hit a tin can at 100yds when fired from a benchrest steady firing position.

Oh, but... you're gonna be running and gunning! More like running and missing.
Slinging lead is not conducive to hitting. It just makes you feel like you should be accomplishing something for all the noise and recoil you're generating. Yet, only hits count!

Funny. Not much argument here. No facts that are contrary to what I've posted. Just a lot of protests and name calling. This is like Xmas Story with triple-dog-dares and Ralphie blazing away with Ol' Blue his Hungarian AK with the compass in the stock. What Walter Mittys American men have become!

Do you feel good about that remarkable SKS that will do a 2" group at 100yds when you have to hit something the size of an apple at 100 or 150 (gasp!) yds? Is that 2" group at 100yds a 3 shot group? You can always tell the slackers because they can only get 3 decent shots out of every 5 or 10 rds, those are the ones that "count", they tell themselves. Like Pee Wee Herman falling off his bike, "I meant to do that...".

Most comments here are by Walter Mitty types who reckon they will be sleeping at night in the midst of their Mad-Max fantasy. I wonder if they packed their footie pajamas in the bugout bag?

The tools you select betray your intentions, your expectations and your abilities; not to mention your tactics. Anybody glassing a guy with an AK coming over the hill gets the number of that potential opponent right away.

I dunno where anyone got enough false-confidence to expect a 100yd effective carbine will be all they need, but your opponents salute you for making it easy on them.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

For maybe the 20'th ****in time, no one is saying its the only weapon you need. Will you give it a rest now? Its like you've got alzheimers or something MM. Read through and see how many times we said this. It is the most versatile, NOT the only weapon anyone could ever want or need. You started this pointless thread to tell us that 7.62x39 "is not a survivalists cartridge", whatever the **** that means. You act like we're wrong for owning a weapon of which over 100 million units have been produced. Would I like an M14? Sure, but I'd still keep my AK.

Now when posed with the decision:

$1,200 M14 rifle

- OR -

$300 AK rifle, $300 bullet proof vest, $200 in rifle plates $200 in ammo $100 in magazines and accessories and $100 in whatever else I want, I think thats far better for "survival" than blowing all of my money on a .308, don't you see that?

You keep talking about these asinine hypothetical situations where you'd be sooo much better off than any of us because you have a .308 and we have AK's.

Its really not that complicated. If they're more than 200 yards out (my SAR-1 can hit bowling pins 7 out of 10 times at that range) then I'd really like to know why you're shooting at them in the first place. Are they shooting at you? Well then guess what, if they got the drop on you you're probably shit out of luck already, no matter what gun you got. Are you going to pick them off anyone walking along the side of the road with your .338? Just what the hell are you planning on doing? You're ignoring such basic shit its incredible. 122 grains of lead at 2,300 feet per second is lethal. Inexpensive rifle, inexpensive ammo, leaves room for other preps. Not all of us here are rich gold bugs, MM.

Now are you done yet? You can just keep talking all this stupid shit about us, but having posted such an asinine thread in the first place, you're really only making yourself look worse by attempting to insult us.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Com'on guys. Ease up on MM.

He's just a GOVERNMENT PLANT. Or is that a GOVERNMENT SHRUB?

Besides, his .308 will be ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS when the zombie hordes that he likes to talk about gives the nod to their 'sniper'.

Who's using a .50 caliber bolt action rifle. He'll never hear the shot fired.

He'll DIE with his head exploding like an over ripe melon as it hits the supermarket floor.

But, hey, it's HIS ORGASMIC FANTASY. He doesn't live in the 'real world'.

He lives at the sniper forum/long distance shooter forums where this is ALL they know. So it's ALL he knows.

So com'on. Give poor old MM a break. After all, don't you feel the Christmas spirit? Don't you feel the MORON in MM reaching out to you?

:tongue_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I just HAD to take the 200th post on this IDIOTIC thread.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You beat me to it!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Wally feels so threatened about the information I've posted over the last couple of months. I guess he just wanted to prove himself to be the idiot here/today? (That why you posted at #200? You proved your status long ago to me, over and over, with remarks that showed you weren't even qualified to sweep up in an accuracy gunsmith's shop.)

Too bad so few understand what survivalism is about.
Too bad so few firearms enthusiasts understand the potentials of handloading.

Too bad so many AK enthusiasts can't see that the "hordes" they fear and are preparing to "put down" are actually comprised of their fellow Americans. Instead of storing numerous cases of ammunition and rifles (as Wallew suggests often), if you stored extra food, linens, clothing and other gear you might enable an American Renaissance rather than an American Killing Field.

The survivalist is not buying weapons primarily for self-defense or offensive use against his fellow citizens in time of economic collapse. For this reason, the AK/SKS and 7.62x39 has little to offer the survivalist. Yet many here have embraced it, and see their reasons for doing so as "to be certain of living through the conflagration" or some similar reason.

Too bad they didn't think beyond that, and determine to remove themselves from the midst of the "troubles". That is what the survivalist has already done. Relocation is about the primary directive of survivalism. If performed well, the "troubles" may never be even an annoyance in daily living. There will be other annoyances and discomforts to be sure, but they are anticipated also (just like the "troubles" were) and planned for, mitigated.

What we see on this thread is a number of persons, unable to comprehend the topic, but unable to refrain from comment. These persons are unable to realize that their decisions basically influence their circumstances. Failure to comprehend a situation has led to the ruin or death of many good intentioned people.

Possession of a minimally accurate, short ranged, underpowered carbine does not convey the same advantages a real rifle enjoys.

The survivalist has a different set of needs.
The AK enthusiast may live in an urban/suburban area and expect their bugout travel will be something akin to the Blackhawk Down withdrawal from city-central Mogadishu, Somalia. Hope you have your armored humvee fueled up and ready 24/7; and maybe live in a bunker in case you have to hunker-down!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

From a thread posted on a shooters' website:

"A guy came in the shop on Friday claiming his AR-15 is shooting 1000yards consistently. Well I am no idiot and I know that a .22LR can hit 1000yards with some luck so I wasn't really impressed. But then he said he had a 18" barrel and was doing it with wal-mart ammo. Ok well fine and dandy, he then said "I bet you $50 I can put 10 rounds out of 30 in a 10" circle", I jumped up and said "I call your bullshit".

Well today I got showed up, I brought my Bosses AR with me just for shits and giggles to shoot with him, and he went as far as using my gun to shoot 1000 yards with it, not only did he hit 10 he hit 3 more. Now that I am $50 bucks poorer I am totally shocked, this was done with iron sights. Well he showed me how much to raise the sights and where to aim, and today I hit a 10" circle with iron sights on a A2 20" upper at 1000yards. My first 1000yards ever and I did it with iron sights."



MM says: Yeah, but not with an AK!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Oh brother.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Got any pictures?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

What exactly is the DEFENSIVE value of a 1,000 yard gun?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I don't like 308s. To make that case work you need faster burning powders. That, in a light weigh rifle produces a WHACK of a high pressure recoil impulse which is not inducive to good trigger control in all but the most recoil insensetive. Maybe it's OK in a 12-15 pound target rifle, but that is not what I shoot. Have owned two of them and have shot several others, but don't think I will own any more. Still like my time tested 30-06's with their slower burning powders and their more controlable PUSH.

Then you also have the difference in case capacity of the commercial and thicker walled military brass that makes reloading more problematic with the 308/7.62x51. It might produce tighter groups with heavy bench rest rifles, but in the real world of light rifles it's sharp recoil makes it a stinker for field accurracy.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

M&M,
The FUNNY part about all your posts is that you ASSUME that those of us who OWN AK's ONLY OWN AK'S!

Which is NOT TRUE. But hey, you're such a genius, there's little ANY ONE can tell you.

Ever lived OUTSIDE for any length of time? In below freezing weather in the snow? With what you have in your pockets?

Lots of US have. You make so many fVcking assumptions that even JUDGE JUDY WOULD THROW YOUR @SS IN JAIL.

But you keep coming back, posting SHIT FROM YOUR LONG DISTANCE SHOOTING FORUM. If anyone HERE wanted info from a long distance shooting forum, we would join that. Which NONE of us have. Get it?

WHY DO YOU EVEN BOTHER COMING OVER HERE? No one cares. No one likes you. NO ONE WANTS YOU HERE.

Go back to your 'bunker' and hunker your SELF DOWN.

But you're so STUPID, you'll keep coming back posting your USELESS DRIVEL that's it's almost pitifully sad.

UNITL ONE OF THE MODERATORS FINALLY PUTS YOU OUT OF OUR MISERY. WHICH WILL OCCUR EVENTUALLY. JUST LIKE 'GOT GOLDIES'.

PLEASE MODS, MAKE IT GO AWAY! PLEASE!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I have wondered why you were "here" Wallew.
This is a precious metals discussion site, or was when I joined over 4 years ago.
You seem to come here only to bluster about your gunsmithing degree and then you post BS that is preposterous and beyond credulity. A few weeks back, I looked at your post history. Nothing about gold/silver/stocks/economy. Nothing from you but a lot of wasted bandwidth.

But this thread isn't about you. Do what you want. I have no grudge with you. You just show yourself to be extremely inept and ill-informed when you post "advice".


I would not qualify Varget, IMR4064, IMR4895, or any of the other normally preferred powders used in the .308 to be "fast". They all could be used in the .30-06. Evidently, if you want to get hits out to 1000 yds, you don't need more than WallyWorld Fed/Rem ammo and an A2 iron sight on a pretty standard AR-15.

The ballistics on the 7.62x39 is simply too puny to enable the same performance. Maybe it is that the sight is just not tall enough? What is the bullet drop for a .225bc bullet at 2350fps at 1000yds? Maybe 30 feet?


This thread was begun to prove that a survivalist has very little application for the 7.62x39 cartridge. It has done so.

You don't know how to handload? Don't have the gear?
Too bad, you are really limiting yourself

Don't know have a concern for accuracy?
Too bad, you will really never develop much confidence in your skills.

Think every refugee coming your way has your name on his bullet?
Too bad, you are living in fear and fear causes men to rationalize actions they often regret later.


Of course, I may have missed Jeff Foxworthy's post on this thread earlier.
You know that page from his book Redneckisms; where he says, "You may be a dumb, stupid redneck if you own an AK 47 and believe 4moa is accurate."

And no I won't even post his remarks about those AK 47 owners who marry their sisters. This is a family forum, after all. Not much point in being judgmental, is there?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hey MM, Why don't you let me shoot you in the foot with 7.62x39 and then we can shoot the other with .223. Let me know what hurts the most.

http://blackwellindustries.com/images/yugo.jpg

Here's what I should have in a couple of weeks. It's a fine Urban survival weapon.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You guys wallow around often in mud puddles?

I have never stomped on any of my rifles. Just never occurred to me that doing so would help my bedding job or help the alignment of my scope. Is this a Wallew tip? Something he advised doing? That would make sense...

What vivid imaginations you guys have! Imagining that the improbable is what you ought to prepare for. Bypassing those negligible benefits of accuracy, power, and versatility; all so you can beat the hell outa your gun and shoot it when it is full of muck.

Is this a setup for another You Might Be joke?

Funny thing about shooting a wet barrel, (I know this don't apply to no AK but...), if you have a precision barrel, you shouldn't even fire a round down the tube unless the barrel is patched out and dry. Even the presence of a film of oil can do damage to the barrel when a bullet passes over it.

Back now to the mudhole...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hey M&M,

4 MOA IS MINUTE OF MAN. Good enough in ANY SURVIVALIST SITUATION.

But you don't even KNOW THAT, do you?

mtnman,
Great looking underfolder. Do you have any 'issues' with changing mags with the folder in it's folded position? Mine are side folders and I've never had the chance to play with an underfolder. LOOKS SWEET FOR SURE.

But, YOU KNOW that 7.62x39 isn't a SURVIVALIST CARTRIDGE. So why don't you just give it to me. I PROMISE it will have yet another great home... LOL!

:applause_

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

That's a nice Yugo you have their, AG Capone. FWIW you can usually gain about half an inch at 100 yards by shutting off the gas system on those models. It's an old trick that works with FAL's and other rifles with manually adjusted gas systems, too.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Wally,

What you don't know could fill a book.
Too bad you don't exhibit any wit or humor; could be a best seller.

Maybe we need a thread of all your Wallewisms? Subtitle it, "How Much can a Gunsmith Not Know About Firearms? You'd be Surprised!".

Why would Rev mention disconnecting the gas system to gain another 1/2" at 100yds? Would kind of play havoc with your zero, guy. Wouldn't it? But after all, who cares about enabling a 4moa gun to cluster (I was going to say group, but that is wrong; isn't it?) its shots 1/2" higher? Oh, except you lose your semi-auto function. Damn! No Such Thing As Free Lunch, is there?

How do you mount a scope on one of them sheet metal receivers? Drill & tap for a rail? Not like that is tempered steel, is it? Not likely you can even get two revolutions of bite on your screw is there?

I think about anyone looking for an all-around firearm for homesteading/survival use would choose a piece that features power, accuracy and versatility over the ability to spray lead, even if they dropped it into the muck.

Not like many people are so clumsy with their firearms; or is it your experience Wally, working as a gunsmith, that people buy guns to run over them in the mud with their tractor or SUV? Maybe this is Devolution happening in front of our eyes? Men going back into the mire with their guns. Darwin never counted on Mudder Enthusiasts, did he? He figured once out of the primordial muck, men would rather not engage in amphibian role playing games.

Maybe instead of a ghillie suit, you guys are wearing a neoprene mud suit?
No wonder you need those 40rd blasters! You gotta blast every puddle to be sure a mud-sniper isn't taking a bead on you!

They say "truth is stranger than fiction".
Anybody choosing a 4moa poodle-popper (although not a miniature-poodle popper; that would require precision! They are so small!), over something that can actually group at 200yds is really spooked into next Sunday. Too bad these guys haven't thought about needing to hit where they're aiming! You all think that nobody aims any more, just snap off a few "on the run".

Well, what an entertaining thread this has been...

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/bhinton/AK/AK_ScopeRailA.jpg


That's how...:bike:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

There's some very good optics for the side rail. I've got a PK-AS optical sight for mine. Hard to find sometimes but in addition to enhancing contrast and have a rangefinding feature it also has a blackdot system so it can function without batteries. A 3rd gen Kobra is really good too, a little faster but not quite as precise at long range. Using the sling I got 2moa out of my AK this past week with the stock irons. I might try a 4x POSP on it.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

....................

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

.....................

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

We need to rename this thread "Kalashnikov's - For Dummies".:tongue_ma:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I don't know anything about anything.

What is that? A receiver? Why'd you post it?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Capone said,
We need to rename this thread "Kalashnikov's - For Dummies".

How about, "KALISHNIKOVS ARE FOR DUMMIES"?
How about, "Kalishnikovs: Not For Survivalists, Great For Dummies"?

What great fun this is! I have seen a pix or two of a top mount picatinny rail for the AK, but didn't realize the AK Hucksters here might think that a side-rail, riveted, not even screwed to the stamped receiver, was a "good thing" to mount a scope to.

Man, forget that Marlin 336 with tapped top mount receiver. That is way high-tech beyond these things. The Win 94 is looking Really Good in comparison. Never was much on the sidemount scope rigs for Winchester levers, but since the Win has a steel receiver, and is drilled and tapped already, wow! It is lightyears ahead of the AK. Not to mention, the Win 94 fires that far more versatile round, the .30-30. And yes, the .30-30 in every situation can be reloaded. Very unlikely you'll ever see a Berdan primed .30-30Win ctg case.


Not any stamped receiver rifles I am aware of that compete in any accuracy competitions. Nothing inherent to the process of stamping a piece of sheet steel that delivers precision geometry and bearing surfaces. Castings and billet machining are the techniques mfrs use to build rifles that aspire to accuracy.

Accuracy, power, and versatility are attributes the 7.62x39 ctg cannot deliver in the AK47 or SKS.

Now, those guns are reputed to shoot forever while encased in mud and full of sand/muck etc. Some people find this "quality" important enough to give up the accuracy, power, and versatility they'd have access to if they chose a rifle chambered for an American service cartridge. Evidently, these Walter Mittys expect to fire several thousand rounds in one day's time an live to tell about it. These Mittys expect to face traumas so severe that they fully expect, are in fact planning to drop their weapons in the mud/muck and in the process of retrieval, need to know that their gun will go bang.

This is the part of AK's Are For Dummies that I really must dismiss.

Our AK Dummy thinks that it is safe to discharge a weapon that has been submerged in mud & muck. Just rinse it off with water, some guy said a while back... Where ya gonna find the clean water, genius? Is there a drinking water clean puddle next to every mud puddle in your fantasy world? Maybe a hydrant with hose? Is there a sign along the trail, "Rinse dirty AKs here"? Got a fluorescent arrow so you don't race by while emptying a banana clip "on the move" as Suki-Tawdry stated?

Gonna really fire that gun? Are you? After dropping/immersing it in a mudbath?

Pardon me for stepping back and getting behind some cover!

4moa "accuracy", low velocity, limited power, absence of versatility; to this list of "qualities" the AK possesses we can add expectations for functionality beyond reason.

Funny. Mud and dirty water in general is what it is because of suspended particles of dirt, minerals, vegetable matter. This crap in any barrel, if a cartridge is discharged while present, can damage the weapon.

But, let us not get bogged down with facts. The Dummy doesn't choose the AK for its real-world qualities and potential to deliver accurate, powerful fire. Nope, the Dummy want's that reputation for muddy excellence.

Just wondering, how many of the AK enthusiasts get out there, going up to their necks in the mud? Not talking ATV or Monster Truck mudding. Talking hunting or weekend strolling... Maybe you take your pirougue out into Grosse Tette Swamp every chance you get?

I've actually been stuck in a swamp for 5-6 hours, up to my waist in icy, muck filled water; but never got my rifle dirty. I know about swamps. I know they are to be avoided.

If you know about swamps and mud, you'll figure out how to keep your rifle out of them, thus the AK's legendary functionality will matter hardly at all to you. Hardly enough to cause you to sacrifice so much power, accuracy and versatility in order to gain such a negligible benefit.

Kinda like the old vaudeville routine where the guy goes to the doctor and says, "hey dr., it hurts when I do this", and the dr. says, "Okay, don't do that!" Pay enough attention to what you're doing, and maybe you wont drop your rifle into the mud or have to cross a swamp.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I live in / close to a very big city - Los Angeles. I've got a shotgun, a saiga, and a handgun to protect myself. MM you've opened my eyes! I am off to a store to sell my guns and get a rifle that does not shoot 7.62x39.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

polytech sold an underfolder before the bush import ban. very solid. no problem changing mags with the stock folded up. http://xs109.xs.to/xs109/06462/PolyTechAK47S1.jpg

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

neat story on NPR today about how Orange County recycled toilet water into tap. nice huh?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Well at least yor real motive behind this thread has been shown.

24 hours ago you had no idea how a scope attached to an AK and now you are an expert in the subject. Figures... You've never even used one.

"Well it can't mount as good as my .336 Marlin" lol, No chit... you think? Really M&M, you think so?


Do you even own any gold? GTF out of here.:rolleyes_m:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

.......................

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Hey there MM.....I see you're still waging war on the AK world.........how about an AK that shoots a different type of round other than 7.62 ?

I thought you might like this one :

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ind...OD&ProdID=1448

It's full-auto capable with 6mm hi-tech ammo (endless supply) :D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

AK Dudes,

No war being waged here. I never said dump your popguns. Have all you want; this is America (for a while longer). Matters not to me what you do.

This whole thread was begun when a member posted seeking advice on ONLY ONE GUN. Wallew even agreed that a Rem 700 would be a great choice over almost any other selection, for the guy who only could have ONE GUN. Many guys were advising Glock, Sig, Rem 870, Mossberg etc etc.

Ol Rev 127 argued for the 7.62x39, and I took issue. The guy lived in Northern Wisconsin, small town near Canadian Border. Lotsa hordes to defend against up there? Not hardly.

So, You get yourself all upset over why the 7.62x39 is not a DO EVERYTHING weapon? Face facts, it is not.

The idiots here who claim it can take elk and deliver accurate fire to 500yds are just fooling themselves.

I hope you all have understock folders, and bayonets. Fulfill your fantasies. Just don't be too surprised when you find you needed more power, accuracy and versatility.

I have continually made the case from the start, nothing has changed. The title of this thread is true. The survivalist has no need to own an AK or SKS in 7.62x39; and sure doesn't need a bolt rifle in that chambering.

Too bad nobody ever told some of the AK enthusiasts you weren't supposed to drop your gun in the mud. Maybe they didn't learn everything they needed to know in kindergarten? Seems pretty elementary to me, but you will never go broke underestimating the intelligence on the average American.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

elite survivalists have .308s and all the lesser underling survivalists work for the elite majority and are equipped with AKs so the elite can keep them down and survive easier and more comfortably.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

MM, your .308 may pick nails off a fence at 600 yards for a skilled shooter, but how good is it for Joe Q. Public? Wouldn't the inherent greater accuracy at distance simply be wasted on someone who lacks the training to control his breathing, judge windage, etc? My time at any range has told me that most people couldn't hit then broad side of a barn at 600 yds, no matter what you put in their hands.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Really ? .......but you're grossly misinformed because an RPK can do that with ease in the hands of an accomplished marksman which I happen to own and even posted pics but you continue to ignore the facts. :banghead:

<TABLE class=infobox style="FONT-SIZE: 90%; WIDTH: 315px; TEXT-ALIGN: left; border-spacing: 2px"><TBODY><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Cartridge</TH><TD>7.62x39mm M43 (RPK, RPKS)
5.45x39mm M74 (RPK-74, RPKS-74)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Action</TH><TD>Gas-operated, rotating bolt</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Rate of fire</TH><TD>600 rounds/min (RPK, RPKS, RPK-74, RPKS-74)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Muzzle velocity</TH><TD>745 m/s (RPK, RPKS)
960 m/s (RPK-74, RPKS-74)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Effective range</TH><TD>100 to 1000 m sight adjustments</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Feed system</TH><TD>40 or 75-round curved magazine (RPK, RPKS)
45-round box magazine (RPK-74, RPKS-74)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Sights</TH><TD>Front: semi-shrouded front post, rear: sliding tangent with adjustable notch, 555 mm sight radius</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Referring to others as idiots only lowers your IQ - MM and really helps bolster your arguments when you do nothing but look like a complete ASS.

Then again, maybe you are :

http://z.about.com/d/esl/1/0/0/a/donkey.jpg

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Not calling anyone a liar but at 1000 yards, a 10" circle would look like tip of a push pin if not smaller. I mean I think the x ring on a 1000 yard match target is 20" with a 44" bullseye. Not happening without optics. www.long-range.com is a pretty nice site on long range shooting. I am far from an expert on long range rifle shooting but don't believe everything you read on the net. Lot of keyboard commandos out there.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Here's something to consider. Calculated based on a 55gr spitzer at 3240fps with a gentle 3mph crosswind and a 100 yard zero.

<TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>3240</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>1282</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>3031</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.22</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.53</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.05</TD><TD align=right width=50>1122</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.21</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2842</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.01</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.1</TD><TD align=right width=50>986</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.46</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>2661</TD><TD align=right width=50>-1.3</TD><TD align=right width=50>4.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>865</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.88</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>2488</TD><TD align=right width=50>-3.84</TD><TD align=right width=50>8.35</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.21</TD><TD align=right width=50>756</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.49</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>2322</TD><TD align=right width=50>-7.79</TD><TD align=right width=50>13.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.28</TD><TD align=right width=50>658</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.31</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>2162</TD><TD align=right width=50>-13.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>20.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.34</TD><TD align=right width=50>571</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.37</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>2009</TD><TD align=right width=50>-20.8</TD><TD align=right width=50>29.07</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.42</TD><TD align=right width=50>493</TD><TD align=right width=50>4.68</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1862</TD><TD align=right width=50>-30.39</TD><TD align=right width=50>39.92</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.49</TD><TD align=right width=50>423</TD><TD align=right width=50>6.27</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1723</TD><TD align=right width=50>-42.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>53.28</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>363</TD><TD align=right width=50>8.19</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1592</TD><TD align=right width=50>-57.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>69.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.67</TD><TD align=right width=50>310</TD><TD align=right width=50>10.45</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>550</TD><TD align=right width=50>1471</TD><TD align=right width=50>-76.04</TD><TD align=right width=50>89.33</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.77</TD><TD align=right width=50>264</TD><TD align=right width=50>13.09</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>600</TD><TD align=right width=50>1360</TD><TD align=right width=50>-98.55</TD><TD align=right width=50>113.09</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.87</TD><TD align=right width=50>226</TD><TD align=right width=50>16.14</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>650</TD><TD align=right width=50>1263</TD><TD align=right width=50>-125.77</TD><TD align=right width=50>141.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.99</TD><TD align=right width=50>195</TD><TD align=right width=50>19.62</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>700</TD><TD align=right width=50>1179</TD><TD align=right width=50>-158.41</TD><TD align=right width=50>175.46</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.11</TD><TD align=right width=50>170</TD><TD align=right width=50>23.54</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>750</TD><TD align=right width=50>1111</TD><TD align=right width=50>-197.29</TD><TD align=right width=50>215.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.24</TD><TD align=right width=50>151</TD><TD align=right width=50>27.87</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>800</TD><TD align=right width=50>1056</TD><TD align=right width=50>-243.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>262.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>136</TD><TD align=right width=50>32.58</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>850</TD><TD align=right width=50>1012</TD><TD align=right width=50>-296.78</TD><TD align=right width=50>317.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.52</TD><TD align=right width=50>125</TD><TD align=right width=50>37.62</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>900</TD><TD align=right width=50>974</TD><TD align=right width=50>-358.8</TD><TD align=right width=50>380.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>116</TD><TD align=right width=50>42.98</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>950</TD><TD align=right width=50>943</TD><TD align=right width=50>-429.85</TD><TD align=right width=50>453.17</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.83</TD><TD align=right width=50>109</TD><TD align=right width=50>48.6</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>1000</TD><TD align=right width=50>915</TD><TD align=right width=50>-510.54</TD><TD align=right width=50>535.11</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.99</TD><TD align=right width=50>102</TD><TD align=right width=50>54.48</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Yep.

500+ inch drop at 1000 yards. Hitting a 10" pie plate at 1000 with irons???? I mean think about it. Can the average person even see a stop sign at over a half a mile away? Stop sign is about 16" dia or so I think.

I know when things get real bad....I want something belt fed.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sorry for your confused conjecture, but tens of thousands of men & women compete in NRA highpower matches at 600 and 1000yd ranges every weekend. Most do not allow anything but open/micrometer sights. F class is a very hot growing competition for 1000yd shooting and scopes are okay in that class.

Perhaps the AK sight is calibrated to 1000yds, but like the old mausers/enfields etc with their ladder flip up sights, these are meant for grouped fire. The whole platoon adjusts and fires on the object hoping one bullet will get a hit, or the hail of fire will drive an enemy off. These are not intended to hit anything specific at that range.

There are lots of people interested in longrange accurate shooting.
Why limit yourself with a rifle that has neither the power, accuracy, or versatility to accomplish this? A survivalist wouldn't choose to limit himself, anymore than he/she is consciously choosing to remain in the city if turmoil is expected.

Too bad the 7.62x39 isn't boxer primed, isn't .308 diameter, and doesn't offer about 40gr of powder capacity. Oh that's right! If it was it would be a .308Winchester.

Doesn't much matter about whether most people can't shoot. If their ctg doesn't have the capacity to enable them to become better, they never will. You simply can't learn to hit at 200yds and more with a rifle that won't deliver 5 hits inside a 4" circle at 100yds. That same rifle probably won't group 5 shots inside 10" at 200yds.

The only thing the AK will do well is sling lead. Oh, yeah; drop it in the mudhole and just blaze away. I'm guessing most people have enough brains NOT to drop their weapon in the mud. Maybe I'm wrong?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Well, DUH........be prepared to eat those words when you witness the lethal accuracy of my RPK ~ it'll shoot 2-3" groupings at 100yds in my hands easy. :wink:

You still fail to see the differences of the AK family ~ oh that's right.....the number of AK variants out there is higher than your IQ.

:bear_tongue:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

The drop is considerable but that isn't too hard to account for if you have your sights properly adjusted and some means of range estimation. 50+ inches of wind drift with a light 3mph breeze is a much bigger obstacle to overcome, though. At 1,000 yards wind conditions are going to be different than they are where you start the shot and with 2 seconds of flight time there's no real way to know for sure what the wind will do from the time you fire from the time you strike the target. Two seconds... what if your target decides to scratch its butt between the time you fire and the bullet arrives? Just not conducive to 1moa @ 1,000 yards or many practical applications. Otherwise yeah, targets can be hit at long ranges with calibers you wouldn't expect to be able to do it. Then the other side of this is terminal effect. What can you really get from a 55gr .224 diameter lump of lead with 102ftlbs of energy? Essentially the same as a .22lr from a mini-revolver at point blank range. If you want to shoot at 1,000 yards get a 1,000 yard rifle firing a 1,000 yard cartridge and hope for the best. People and animals aren't the same thing as paper.

Even a .308 at that range is iffy. At least it hits with over 300ftlbs of energy if you do make contact. Here's a chart,

<CENTER><TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2820</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2649</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2666</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.06</TD><TD align=right width=50>2367</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.21</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2524</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.12</TD><TD align=right width=50>2122</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.45</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>2387</TD><TD align=right width=50>-1.74</TD><TD align=right width=50>5.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.18</TD><TD align=right width=50>1898</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.85</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>2255</TD><TD align=right width=50>-5</TD><TD align=right width=50>10.66</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.24</TD><TD align=right width=50>1694</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.43</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>2126</TD><TD align=right width=50>-9.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>17.19</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.31</TD><TD align=right width=50>1505</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.22</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>2002</TD><TD align=right width=50>-16.89</TD><TD align=right width=50>25.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>1335</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.21</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1883</TD><TD align=right width=50>-25.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>36.27</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.46</TD><TD align=right width=50>1181</TD><TD align=right width=50>4.44</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1768</TD><TD align=right width=50>-37.53</TD><TD align=right width=50>49.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.54</TD><TD align=right width=50>1041</TD><TD align=right width=50>5.92</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1659</TD><TD align=right width=50>-51.87</TD><TD align=right width=50>65.24</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.63</TD><TD align=right width=50>917</TD><TD align=right width=50>7.68</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1555</TD><TD align=right width=50>-69.37</TD><TD align=right width=50>84.28</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>805</TD><TD align=right width=50>9.73</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>550</TD><TD align=right width=50>1458</TD><TD align=right width=50>-90.47</TD><TD align=right width=50>106.92</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.82</TD><TD align=right width=50>708</TD><TD align=right width=50>12.1</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>600</TD><TD align=right width=50>1369</TD><TD align=right width=50>-115.65</TD><TD align=right width=50>133.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.93</TD><TD align=right width=50>624</TD><TD align=right width=50>14.8</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>650</TD><TD align=right width=50>1288</TD><TD align=right width=50>-145.47</TD><TD align=right width=50>165</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.04</TD><TD align=right width=50>553</TD><TD align=right width=50>17.86</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>700</TD><TD align=right width=50>1216</TD><TD align=right width=50>-180.51</TD><TD align=right width=50>201.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>493</TD><TD align=right width=50>21.26</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>750</TD><TD align=right width=50>1153</TD><TD align=right width=50>-221.41</TD><TD align=right width=50>244.03</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.29</TD><TD align=right width=50>443</TD><TD align=right width=50>25.02</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>800</TD><TD align=right width=50>1101</TD><TD align=right width=50>-268.8</TD><TD align=right width=50>292.96</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.42</TD><TD align=right width=50>404</TD><TD align=right width=50>29.1</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>850</TD><TD align=right width=50>1058</TD><TD align=right width=50>-323.3</TD><TD align=right width=50>349</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.56</TD><TD align=right width=50>373</TD><TD align=right width=50>33.48</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>900</TD><TD align=right width=50>1021</TD><TD align=right width=50>-385.49</TD><TD align=right width=50>412.73</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.7</TD><TD align=right width=50>347</TD><TD align=right width=50>38.13</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>950</TD><TD align=right width=50>989</TD><TD align=right width=50>-455.91</TD><TD align=right width=50>484.69</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.85</TD><TD align=right width=50>326</TD><TD align=right width=50>43.04</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>1000</TD><TD align=right width=50>962</TD><TD align=right width=50>-535.08</TD><TD align=right width=50>565.4</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.01</TD><TD align=right width=50>308</TD><TD align=right width=50>48.17</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
And here is a similar chart for 7.62x39,

<TABLE width="80%"><TBODY><TR><TH align=right width=50>Range <TH align=right width=50>Velocity <TH align=right width=50>Impact <TH align=right width=50>Drop <TH align=right width=50>ToF <TH align=right width=50>Energy <TH align=right width=50>Drift</TR> <TR><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>2365</TD><TD align=right width=50>-0.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>1553</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>50</TD><TD align=right width=50>2205</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.64</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.95</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.07</TD><TD align=right width=50>1350</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.25</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>100</TD><TD align=right width=50>2056</TD><TD align=right width=50>0</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.69</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.14</TD><TD align=right width=50>1173</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.61</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>150</TD><TD align=right width=50>1913</TD><TD align=right width=50>-2.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>8.5</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.21</TD><TD align=right width=50>1016</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.23</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>200</TD><TD align=right width=50>1777</TD><TD align=right width=50>-7.81</TD><TD align=right width=50>15.69</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.3</TD><TD align=right width=50>876</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.15</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>250</TD><TD align=right width=50>1648</TD><TD align=right width=50>-15.68</TD><TD align=right width=50>25.65</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.38</TD><TD align=right width=50>754</TD><TD align=right width=50>3.38</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>300</TD><TD align=right width=50>1528</TD><TD align=right width=50>-26.76</TD><TD align=right width=50>38.83</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.48</TD><TD align=right width=50>648</TD><TD align=right width=50>4.97</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>350</TD><TD align=right width=50>1416</TD><TD align=right width=50>-41.57</TD><TD align=right width=50>55.73</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.58</TD><TD align=right width=50>557</TD><TD align=right width=50>6.94</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>400</TD><TD align=right width=50>1316</TD><TD align=right width=50>-60.72</TD><TD align=right width=50>76.98</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.69</TD><TD align=right width=50>481</TD><TD align=right width=50>9.31</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>450</TD><TD align=right width=50>1228</TD><TD align=right width=50>-84.9</TD><TD align=right width=50>103.25</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.81</TD><TD align=right width=50>419</TD><TD align=right width=50>12.1</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>500</TD><TD align=right width=50>1153</TD><TD align=right width=50>-114.82</TD><TD align=right width=50>135.27</TD><TD align=right width=50>0.93</TD><TD align=right width=50>369</TD><TD align=right width=50>15.31</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>550</TD><TD align=right width=50>1093</TD><TD align=right width=50>-151.27</TD><TD align=right width=50>173.81</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.07</TD><TD align=right width=50>332</TD><TD align=right width=50>18.89</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>600</TD><TD align=right width=50>1044</TD><TD align=right width=50>-194.95</TD><TD align=right width=50>219.59</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.21</TD><TD align=right width=50>303</TD><TD align=right width=50>22.83</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>650</TD><TD align=right width=50>1003</TD><TD align=right width=50>-246.55</TD><TD align=right width=50>273.28</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.36</TD><TD align=right width=50>279</TD><TD align=right width=50>27.08</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>700</TD><TD align=right width=50>968</TD><TD align=right width=50>-306.71</TD><TD align=right width=50>335.54</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.51</TD><TD align=right width=50>260</TD><TD align=right width=50>31.62</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>750</TD><TD align=right width=50>939</TD><TD align=right width=50>-376.04</TD><TD align=right width=50>406.96</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.66</TD><TD align=right width=50>245</TD><TD align=right width=50>36.41</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>800</TD><TD align=right width=50>912</TD><TD align=right width=50>-455.08</TD><TD align=right width=50>488.09</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.83</TD><TD align=right width=50>231</TD><TD align=right width=50>41.45</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>850</TD><TD align=right width=50>888</TD><TD align=right width=50>-544.37</TD><TD align=right width=50>579.48</TD><TD align=right width=50>1.99</TD><TD align=right width=50>219</TD><TD align=right width=50>46.71</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>900</TD><TD align=right width=50>866</TD><TD align=right width=50>-644.46</TD><TD align=right width=50>681.66</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>208</TD><TD align=right width=50>52.21</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>950</TD><TD align=right width=50>845</TD><TD align=right width=50>-755.86</TD><TD align=right width=50>795.16</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.34</TD><TD align=right width=50>198</TD><TD align=right width=50>57.92</TD></TR><TR><TD align=right width=50>1000</TD><TD align=right width=50>825</TD><TD align=right width=50>-879.13</TD><TD align=right width=50>920.52</TD><TD align=right width=50>2.52</TD><TD align=right width=50>189</TD><TD align=right width=50>63.85</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Arsenal Bulgaria expects their 7.62x39 rifles to be able to hit a man-sized target at 600 yards in the hands of a skilled marksman. That would definately be an extreme range for this cartridge and rifle. Both the AR/M-x and AK-47 have real world effective ranges of about 200 yards though certain special loads or circumstances can stretch that a bit for either.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Since when did "7.62x39" become a monotheistic religion on GIM?

"Thou shalt not have any rifles before me."

wahahah.....
:rolleyes_m:

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

"Sorry for your confused conjecture, but tens of thousands of men & women compete in NRA highpower matches at 600 and 1000yd ranges every weekend. Most do not allow anything but open/micrometer sights. F class is a very hot growing competition for 1000yd shooting and scopes are okay in that class."

Yep. I know one or two of them. Believe me when I tell you, they are not shooting 1000 yards at a 10" target. I mean the 6 ring is 60" diameter with a 5" x ring in F class. Like I said, have you looked at a stop sign from 1000 yards away with no optics? Shooting at those ranges is not something everyone can do. Even a quater of that range with good optics is hard for some. Not trying to argue but when you see "I can hit a 10" plate with 10 rounds at 1000 yards with iron sights using Walmart ammo on the net.....it smells like BS.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Sorry Victor,

There are plenty of competitors shooting high scores at 600yds with .223 service rifles. Not like the .223 is a great proposition at 1000 yds but if you knew the comeups on a precision site, and had 90gr matchking or a VLD bullet handloaded and ready in your kit, you could sure give it a go.

There is no substitute for power and high ballistic coefficient. To get 1000yd performance out of 150-155gr .308 bullets, Palma competitors must run 28" or longer barrels. Most shoot .300Win at those distances given a choice.

Elmer Keith writes about shooting longrange with .44sp and .45colt in Sixguns. No real trick to it, just have sighting gear, and get all the variables working with you, (kinda like saying "playing the piano is just a matter of hitting the right note at the right time"). The guy shooting the .223 WallyWorld ammo bet he could get 10 hits out of 30. Once you've done it, you can do it again if you aren't shooting in significant wind.

Yet, the survivalist is not a military or LE asset. Longrange shooting is not his/her only mission. With proper gear and ammunition, the survivalist can adapt and learn. So, the fullpower rifle with flexibility, power, and accuracy is the preferred tool of the survivalist, not the mild-powered carbine.

What is interesting to see is the hundreds/thousands of firms and gunsmiths generating accuracy and special purpose rifles for the Armalite AR-15 platform. There is no similar industry grown up around the 7.62x39. There are no bulletmakers developing for the .3105 diameter, and there is no clamor for 7.62x39 match ammunition. The cartridge is just inferior as it offers no versatility or power. If these factors were present, the accuracy factor could be obtained, but there is no reason to try and make the 7.62x39 something it is not.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I wonder who was baiting whom in this thread?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Having revived a thread two weeks gone, I think the answer to that is obvious.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Unclad,

If you are one of the whining bitches who griped about my "baiting", you're displaying your misunderstanding of the term "baiting" with your remark.

Likely you are equally confused about the terms used herein which included: "survivalism", "accuracy", "power", "versatility" and "long range".

It is amusing to see so many "members" here that either do not comprehend the topic that they reply to, or simply do not read sufficiently into the thread to understand the matters being discussed.


This topic is worthy of ongoing discussion. The fact that most of the apologists for the 7.62x39 disregard the objective facts related to the performance of the round under discussion, but like to post Jpeg images of their "cool guns" back and forth, speaks volumes.

Rationalization is a characteristic of those who lead dysfunctional lives. People who seek others approval to be comforted in their consumer choices are rarely ever satisfied or able to use/appreciate their purchases. Such is the folly of American life, the widespread dependence on others for self-esteem and satisfaction in life.

I don't post here to win friends or influence people. Likely you and I will never meet. Yet if I can make one reader on this thread consider that maybe Accuracy, Power, and Versatility are critically important in the choice of a survival weapon, my time is not wasted.

Maybe to you, that is the definition of "baiting"?

More likely "baiting" is what happens when a thread participant posts a one sentence remark not germane to the topic, as you did right before this reply.

I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to address the issue, though; so thank you!

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

You know, given your adamant position against the Russkie round, I would think you'd be happy to have less competition when the Big Day arrives.

and

Would you prefer to be kettle, or pot?

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!... Can I be "frying pan"? :D

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Pulled a 223 out of my junk rounds box[scores of stuff in there, some way over a hundred years old] and sat it next to a 7.62x39. The compactness of the AK round and it's beautiful large case taper are the the things that are the first to greet the eye.Pulled some more rounds out; the 223 is almost impossible to distingish from a 30-06 round or a 50 caliber round if you don't have any distance perspective! You can't say that the original 06 shape is not a great effective one, but it is not the most reliable one for auto or semi-auto use. This functionality depends a lot on having a goodly amount of case taper. The russian round is totally designed for the functional use in auto or semi-auto weapons. I would like to submit that this case design plays some not small part in the russian weapons system's reliability reputations. Use of a round for "survival" purposes would seemingly call for use of a round designed for semi-auto or auto rifles if you were going to pick that type of weapon design for your use.

Looking again at the 223 'poodle shooter' case, it even seems to my eye to have LESS relatative case taper than the previous US military rounds!!! I will never never call it by it's military designation as it was a 223 Remington bolt gun groundhog round first.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Exactly. Weapons and their cartridges should be chosen based on what is required of them. Guns are tools and if you need a flat head screwdiver a philips head, hacksaw or or routing table just won't do what you need.

I'd be interested to hear you expand on that. .30-30 has taken a lot of game for a lot of years and works fine for that purpose. My grandfather slew many a deer in his day with a .30-30. On the other hand it is ballistically inferior to the 7.62x39 and I can't think of a single practical semi auto rifle chambered in .30-30. The closest you can get is a lever action which compared to a modern fighting rifle is hobbled by a low capacity fixed magazine and a lower rate of fire. An SKS, AK or other rifle in 7.62x39 can hunt just as well as a .30-30 but a .30-30 can't fight as well as the others.

Also interesting. What is the criteria for "superior?" Power? Ballistic arc? Wouldn't that make .50bmg or .338 Lapua Magnum the true survivalist's cartridge? Probably not, the aren't very powerful compared to the 14.5x114 which puts out more than twice the energy of the anemic .50bmg. Shouldn't we be using at least a .700 Nitro Express?

That's the problem with not having clearly identified your needs, there are no real criteria with which to select a weapon that fits.

You did mention reloading and "multitude of options in ammo." This one I'll just have to attribute unfamiliarity. 7.62x39 can be reloaded and you can buy reloadable ammo for the same price or less than those other calibers anywhere from your local WalMart to the major online ammo dealers like www.cheaperthandirt.com or an untold number of other similar vendors. There is also a well rounded selection of ammo for any practical purpose within the cartridges effective range.

That is interesting. How is the crown? How is the bore? What ammo were you shooting? Was it Chinese surplus? That was cheap and common in years past. Much of it was also machinegun ammo with 5moa of dispersion engineered in, not rifle ammo. An SKS in decent shape firing decent ammo should be shooting under 4moa. To give you an idea the old Soviet marksmanship qualification test they gave their soldiers was 1 shot for 1 head hit at 100 meters, 2 shots for 1 head hit at 200 meters and 3 shots for 1 head hit at 300 meters. If you aren't getting those results there is either something wrong with your rifle, your ammo or your shooting technique. My AK turns in 2moa groups over the stock iron sights.

This thread was concieved as nothing other than a flame by a troll the Surival Prep forum recently picked up. It's a shame, compared to religion, general or conspiracy the survival forum on GIM was pretty much troll-free till now. So understanding that it is impossible to engage in rational debate with a troll we can set that aside and discuss it intelligently among ourselves.

The central thesis is whether or not the 7.62x39 is a good round for someone interested in survival. There are two main things a survival rifle can really do for you, ignoring almost frivolous concerns like signaling or lighting a cigarette, they would be hunting and fighting.

Hunting is very clear. The 7.62x39 will kill any deer or pig sized game within its effective range with ease. In the woods where I live, like so many other forrests and swamps around the world, you can't even get LOS on a game animal much more than 50 yards away, this is well within the catridge's effective range. In Africa the cartridge is routinely used by poachers and game wardens to kill rhinos and elephants. I have seen this with my own eyes. There are no land animals bigger or tougher than rhinos or elephants on this planet. Within its range and with proper shot placement the 7.62x39 will kill anything on land anywhere in the world. It is obviously an effective hunting cartridge as attested to by the many animals that fall from it every year all around the world.

The next issue would be fighting. Whether you are in the city or the woods most fighting takes place close up. Go stand in your front yard right now and look around. How far can you see? That will give you some indication of the maximum real world engagement distances you can expect under the most dire circumstances. I live in the woods. I cannot see beyond the 200 yards cleared for my farm and even that is broken up by my home, barn, corral, trees and bushes.

What you definately do need to be able to do is defeat cover your enemy may be using and cause sufficient dammage to take him out of the fight. The 7.62x39 is superior to lighter rounds such as the 5.56x45 or 5.45x39 against nearly all the kinds of commonly encountered cover and makes it through with enough mass and energy to still be dangerous. It is also not as easily deflected by passing through those intermediate barriers than the lighter rounds. Compared to the heavier rounds it has one chief virtue, it is lighter by 20% or more. If you don't need to shoot beyond 200 or 300 yards then it is better to either carry a lighter burden or carry the weight in useful gear than to simply be lugging around dead weight toward no practical end.

You can then consider other practical matters. Reloading is a way to save money on ammo or come up with customized loads. Unless you can conjur up smokeless powder from thin air it isn't an actual survival technique and all your powder and primers should be converted to ready ammo. You also cannot count on any ammo supply other than what you have laid up for yourself. Understanding that, effective 7.62x39 ammo is cheap and available, lending itself to being stored easily in large quantities. This is especially the case because you can buy this ammo in sealed cans designed to be stored long term. At any rate this cartridge is certainly reloadable and reloadable ammo is commonly available and not even particularly expensive.

Along these lines we should also consider the weapons that fire them. A full house .30cal like a .308, .30-06 or 7.62x54r require a long barrel to achieve full powder burn. 16" barrel .308's have ballistic arcs that look very similar to 16" barrel 7.62x39 rifles. This is fine for the environment where these more powerful cartridges shine, wide open spaces. The extra pounds and extra length are a hinderance when fighting in built up areas or hunting in heavy brush. The rifles designed to fire the 7.62x39 are particularly durable and reliable even though others like the FAL for instance are also durable and reliable. The AK magazine is practically speaking the most durable and reliable detachable magazine on the planet, quite seriously.

So it hunts and it fights. Obviously the 7.62x39 is suited to survival uses. Unless you don't really mean surviving you mean hunting. And by hunting you mean only shooting game that is many hundreds of yards away. And you live in a freshly mowed open grassland, or salt flat.

If you do live in wide open country where you have visibility for many hundreds or thousands of yards all around then you need a rifle suited to that environment. I own a full house .30cal bolt rifle for the few occasions where I will need to or want to shoot at long ranges.

Then again hunting is not a survival strategy. If you are resorting to hunting for food then so is everybody else. In the Great Depression nearly all game animals were killed off. Go read about North Korea sometime, or anywhere in Africa that is going through famine. The population just keeps growing, every year adds many million more new hungry mouths to feed in America. Hunting is a great recreational activity but it isn't a real survival skill unless you're just lost in the woods during ordinary times for some odd reason. Serious survivalists have lots of food stored already, and the capacity to grow enough to sustain themselves. You are much more likely to have to protect yourself with your rifle than to be able to gather food with it if TSHTF. Maybe this thread should have been called,

"7.62x39 Is Not A Cartridge For People Who Are Soley Focussed On The Sport Of Shooting Groundhogs Or Punching Holes In Paper At 1,000 Yards"

To which the only sane and rational reply is "duh."

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Great Post Rev!!! But you stole one of my last "sticking" points![african elephant poachers state that they always triple-tap with the 7.62x39 sos they don't have to track too far!] This thread was a great diversion from all the serious business, thanks to MM for that!

Have only one last point for all to consider; many that have studied it think that the American Revolution was won because of three factors:
A. French backing
B. Washington's generalship of harass-retreat harass-retreat harass-retreat etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.harass-KILL!
C. The decimation[ie 10% loss or better]in almost every engagement of the british officer corp by irregular sharpshooters useing their "long rifles". While the regular troops on both side used muskets with ballistics simular to 12 gauge foster shotgun slugs[wildly inaccurate after 60 yards or so], american sharpshooters used their "squirrel guns" shooting a .38-.41 caliber round ball of 90-110 grains at about 1900-2000 fps maximum velocity to do head shots on selected targets out to 200 yards distance. These initial ballistics[that helped win the Revolutionary War] are simular to the 30 caliber US carbine round and less than that of the 7.62x39. round.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

I don't know about all that. I was curious as to what you find superior about the .30-30 compared to the 7.62x39. Also what your particular needs and criteria for a rifle were.

I don't blame you about the war thing. I used to think fighting and killing was cool when I was a gullible kid. Then when I got a little more life experience I learned it actually kind of sucks even if it is necessary sometimes. It's certainly nothing I'd want to make a living at again. Unless you count prize fighting. I don't, that's really more of a sport. Anyway survival isn't so much about "want" as it is about "may need"... kind of like if you carry a pistol for self defense. You probably don't want to be attacked but someday you may be.

Hunting and target shooting is fine too though. Just a different pursuit than survival gunning.

The "commie guns" comment is kind of red herring though. You know commies breath air and drink water too, right? Hmm... I guess there's always tobacco and alchohol so that might not be a good analogy! :smokin::coolbeer:

But no, please, we'd be happy to hear your input. As I said I'm particularly interested in what criteria you want in a survival rifle and what you think is superior about the .30-30 vs 7.62x39.

Re: The 7.62x39 is not a survivalists cartridge...
 

Ol' Rev,

You are really trying to pull every rabbit out of your hat on this. This comment was pretty jocular:
"Also interesting. What is the criteria for "superior?" Power? Ballistic arc? Wouldn't that make .50bmg or .338 Lapua Magnum the true survivalist's cartridge? Probably not, the aren't very powerful compared to the 14.5x114 which puts out more than twice the energy of the anemic .50bmg. Shouldn't we be using at least a .700 Nitro Express?"


Still clamoring about how the 7.62x39 is suitable for elk?
A "survivalist" has needs that differ from what you and your Rambo/Mad Max buddies envision.

The accuracy and power problems are insurmountable with the 7.62x39, unless you decide to spend lots on a bolt rifle, in which case why not choose a 6mm or 6.5mm round? The 6mm has 115gr bullets available, the 6.5 has 145gr bullets. Maybe you are going to seek out match grade bullets or match ammunition for your 7.62x39? Where ya gonna get it? Is very minimal ballistic coefficient bullet moving 2300fps what you consider "powerful"?

Do you really own boxer primed cartridges? Feel like you are getting a value when you spend $12/20 rds or maybe $27/20 for "performance" ammunition? I rather doubt it.

There are those who rebarrel to .308 barrel dimensions, this opens up some interchangeability; but still doesn't make the round able to be in the same league as the .300 Savage or .307 Winchester (the rimless .30-30). Why? AK/SKS magazines offer no room for bullet seating enhancement. Sure, you might wildcat the case; but why? It is what it is Very Limited.

A Survivalist is not very well served with a 50bmg or a .338 lapua. The survivalist is served by weapons that are durable, accurate, powerful and commonly available. Owning rifles chambered for wildcat or highly special rounds may be a super hobby, but it is not viable for the survivalist with only basic needs and goals.

The 7.62x39 lacks power, lacks inherent accuracy potential, and lacks ammunition or handloading versatility.

It is amusing to see you discuss case design characteristics and decide the .30-06 (and .223 since dimensionally it looks the same) are "flawed". Both cartridges are routinely fired in NRA Service Rifle competition at 200-300-600yd distances. Nobody is setting the world on fire with the 7.62x39 in the open competition classes. The round is not capable. As a 100-200yd bencrest & Varmint round, the 22PPC and 6mmPPC with similar case design are the best in that class. Mild power and an accurate bullet in a 14lb benchrest rifle is all you need to fire small groups at 100/200yds. Rather a different matter when you are firing 10rds in 70 seconds with a magazine change.

Most 7.62x39 ammunition is berdan primed, therefore not readily reloadable. Spend $18/20 for American Eagle ammo w/boxer cases; or buy a .308Win and pay $10/20 and get more power and world class accuracy potential.

If your survival retreat does not include habitat for Grizzly bear or wild game routinely exceeding 1000 lbs, you likely could be very well served by the AR-15 with a 1:7 twist and 75 or 77gr bullets. The rifle builders, the ammunition and accuracy potential are all there for this rifle. With heavy bullets it can take large game. A rifle that will shoot .5-1moa out to 600yds with a sling as its only support is a very versatile tool. That so many thousand competitors are able to routinely compete at these distances with accurized standard issue open sights is a valid testimony to the capability of the rifle and the round.

Argue on ad-infinitum about how well AK rifles function in a mudbath or sandstorm. Most people avoid such maladies, and sure don't immerse their weaponry in such environs.

Seems to me that the primary centerfire rifle cartridges for the survivalist are the .223, .308, or .30-06 if you favor the Garand.

Most useful centerfire rifle ctgs are the .223Rem, or any of the .308Win variants (.243Win, .260Rem, 7mm-08, .338-08, .358Win), and the most versatile of all, the .30-06 ant its variants (.25-06, 270Win, .280Rem, .338-06, 35 Whelen).

In a bolt rifle, an Ackley Improved chambering will enable the handloader to fire factory ammunition or enhance the rifle's performance. The .300 Winchester and other basic magnums may also be very useful. Pretty hard to rationalize the "need " for a .50BMG or any of the Super Magnum chamberings, but each to his own.